Considering a 1a purchase

Nostalgia · Nov 6, 2009

Greetings all! I'm the proud owner of a '78 Spitfire, and the opportunity to purchase a Tiger just fell into my lap. I am considering it, but I'm having some trouble getting a feel for what these cars are worth. I'm hoping for a bit of guidance from the fine folks here

The car's license plate frame says "1967" Tiger, but the VIN code has the car as a '66 1a. The engine plate also says "Alpine 260 V8" on it.

The car looks complete. It's been sitting in a container in CA for the last 20+ years, so dry-rot could be an issue. Both doors and one quarter are badly caved in. Otherwise it looks straight and clean.

I haven't seen the interior. Engine bay looks clean. Looks like the proper air cleaner is on it. There's rust on the intake manifold so I'm guessing it's not a replacement.

It's got the JAL-79 fiberglass hood on it. There are aluminum wheels with the 3-prong knockoffs.

Can we make a ballpark on what I should expect to pay for a car like this? Anything specific I should look for or ask about?

Thanks for any advice,

-Joe

todd reid · Nov 6, 2009

If you the read the advice given to deltawingflyer in the listed thread below this, most of it will also apply to you. I'm sure the experts would also like to see pictures before speculating on the value.

Nostalgia · Nov 6, 2009

Thanks Todd, I've been going through that thread and the suggested websites in it. Slowly

Link to the pictures I have so far.

-Joe

todd reid · Nov 6, 2009

It looks like it is potentially a low mileage (relatively) unmolested car that could be the start of something good. The first thing is to check all the numbers, talk to Norm Miller, and verify that it really is what it appears to be.
Then you need to check under the car - are the sills, floors, and crossmembers solid or rusted through?
The next question is: What do you want to do with it? Restore it, drive it, flip it? If it has truely been sitting 20 years it potentially needs everything redone. You might get lucky with the engine, trans, etc, but you shouldn't count on it.
I am no expert on Tigers, but assuming its a legitimate Tiger and solid underneath, then there is certainly someone out there who would pay $5K for it as it sits, even in these economic times.
I'm sure you will get some other (possibly more valid) opinions in the next couple of days from the other guys.

alpine_64 · Nov 6, 2009

I'd seen pictures of this car on flickr almost a year ago. Interesting looking car. It has quite a few LAT options (not JAL options.. JAL is the body ID TAG)

Has LAT rocker covers, LAT70 wheels, Bonnet, doesn't have the radiator shroud, but has the original filter housing, has a the nardi wheel and hub.. its a good starting point for a car, you just have to wonder what caused the damage and is it limited to panels or is it bent underneath.

Ifthe car is straight and the bosy and chassis, spring hangers, sills and X brace are all rust free.. id be buying it quick smart.. i could easily see someone paying mid teens for the car if its not bent.

Alpineracer8 · Nov 6, 2009

Hey, Joe:

Congrats on your Tiger find! From what I saw in the pics, the car doesn't look all that bad. Todd has told you right, however; contact Norm Miller at:

http://www.classictiger.com/mudge/home/index.html

He can run a check on the VIN in the Tiger Registry and should be able to tell you if you've got a car to get serious about or if you should walk away.

By the way, don't let "1967" on the license plate frame fool you. Back then, foreign car dealers were allowed to just bump any unsold new cars up to the next model year if they didn't sell in their actual production year. My Tiger is a Mk1A and should be titled as a '66. However, it's actually titled as a '67, so this is not necessarily an issue. I did notice a few things in the engine compartment, however, that are not Tiger correct or consistent with Mk1A production. First off, it appears the original radiator has been modified as it should not have a filler neck and radiator cap on it. Tigers have a auxillary coolant tank mounted on the driver's inner fender well in front of the cowl brace and this is where you fill the radiator. There should be two hose fittings on the driver's side of the radiator; one about an inch in diameter going to the coolant tank and one small overflow fitting coming off the upper corner of the radiator and also going to the coolant tank. Another thing I noticed was that it has an alternator instead of the stock generator. A lot of guys make that modification and, if it's been parked as long as you think it has been, then that switchover was made years ago. It's also missing it's fan shroud, and the stock oil filter set-up, the latter of which got tossed early on by a lot of owners. The fan has also been replaced at some point, which again, is a common modification. It's also evidently sans a heating system, as there are no heater hoses or control valve present. Same with the windshield washer bottle and bracket; missing. The power brake booster also looks to me like it's one of the newer booster units that one can get to replace the old style unit. Strangely enough, I also see no fuel lines running to the carburetor, which looks suspiciously like a Holley to me. Headers appear to be in place of the stock exhaust manifolds, which may have gone missing. Also, it just hit me...there's no under-hood wiring anywhere to be seen!!! I wonder if someone was in the middle of working on it and ended up never finishing it. You also mentioned the intake in your post. According to some recent research by a fellow Tiger owner on the Tiger mailing list, the engine group (the second set of numbers in the engine number on the serial number plate - "B19KC"), coupled with the lateness of the production number, indicate the motor on this car should have been Old Ford Blue in color. It's difficult to tell if the intake has been changed to an aluminum piece or if the old cast iron intake was just painted silver. At any rate, it has most assuredly been off the car at one time or another. Oh...and one more thing...the spec plate riveted to the bulkhead just below the serial number plate has evidently been added by a previous owner. The early Mk1A cars still had the holes stamped in them and the rivets were present, but there was no spec plate. Later Mk1A cars like this one didn't even have the rivet holes in them.

Oh, and by the way, it has the "LAT" 79 hood on it, as well as the LAT 70 wheels, both of which were options that could be purchased from the Rootes dealer.

Anyway, I'm not trying to knock the car but, since you are obviously a Triumph man and not familiar with Sunbeams, I thought I would point out some of the obvious things to you. Please do check with Norm as he can either light your fire for the car or keep you from wasting your time.

Best of luck,

64beam · Nov 6, 2009

Hi Joe,

Todd is right on the mark with what he has written. As stated, it is difficult to know what it is worth. From your description, you definitely have a full restoration in front of you (if that is what you are looking for). You may even have a European Tiger from what you tell us about the 'Alpine 260' nameplate (Euro Tiger's were called Alpine 260's). You will also find the stock Tiger steering a lot different from your Spitfire, but there are modifications available to make them, better.

Good luck with your decision.

Regards, Robin.

Alpineracer8 · Nov 6, 2009

Robin:

He doesn't have a European Tiger. The suffix on the serial number was "LRXFE," which indicates that the car was destined for the U.S. market. He was referring to the "engine plate" with regards to the "Alpine 260 V8" terminology. Since the car has the LAT "Tiger Powered by Ford" valve covers on it and therefore no engine ID sticker on the valve cover, I can only assume that he's talking about the data plate under the serial number plate which, of course, should'nt be there at all.

Take care,

Nostalgia · Nov 6, 2009

Wow, take a quick nap and I have a whole thread waiting for me! Thanks everyone

Sorry, I mis-typed LAT as JAL. I did find the LAT catalog online, which is where I got the number 79 from.

Alpineracer8, thank you for the thorough reply! I have already contacted Norm, who says he'll get back to me when he's at his main computer.

As for what I'm looking to do with the car, I'm still on the fence about flipping it or driving it. I would most likely start flipping it then fall in love with it and drive it

The car is in a container with a 'Vette that you can see in one of the picture. My dad is a 'Vette guy, so we'd take the whole container and split the cost. As it stands, my half would probably amount around $15k (shipping from CA to NY included) so I'm trying to figure out how much we should negotiate. It seems a little high for what it is. Were it really a MkII, I wouldn't have reservations.

This info will all be very helpful, thanks!

-Joe

64beam · Nov 7, 2009

Alpineracer8 said:
Robin:

He doesn't have a European Tiger. The suffix on the serial number was "LRXFE," which indicates that the car was destined for the U.S. market. He was referring to the "engine plate" with regards to the "Alpine 260 V8" terminology. Since the car has the LAT "Tiger Powered by Ford" valve covers on it and therefore no engine ID sticker on the valve cover, I can only assume that he's talking about the data plate under the serial number plate which, of course, should'nt be there at all.

Take care,

Hi Andy,

I didn't actually see that link until I went back for another look

. I have read an article that states, that some LRX Tiger's were sold in Europe and some LRO Tiger's in the US. The reason I posted my reply earlier is that I remembered reading something about specification plates on Euro Tiger's somewhere. Here is the link I found: http://www.sunbeamtiger.co.uk/catswhiskers/CW68alpine260.htm

Neither here nor there at the end of the day

.

Regards, Robin.

64beam · Nov 7, 2009

Hi,

I finally had a look at the pictures. It doesn't look too bad

. Definitely a nice little restoration project. Other than the non-standard things in the engine bay, it looks like something is growing around the master cylinder

. Am I seeing things?

Regards, Robin.

Jim E · Nov 7, 2009

Being a all around car nut got to ask, what is the Vette, be pretty easy for the vette to be worth more than the tiger. Have seen some pretty nasty pieces of tiger rust sell for 10k so 15k shipped might not be bad at all. That rear quarter does not look all that bad a panel beater should be able to fix that.

Nostalgia · Nov 7, 2009

Norm just got back to me. He says he has reliable information that the car "is no longer a genuine, factory built Sunbeam Tiger."

I'm not entirely clear on what that means. Does it mean the tags and Tiger bits were taken from a busted-up Tiger and put on an Alpine?

Thanks,

-Joe

Jim E · Nov 7, 2009

Sounds like he is saying it is an Alger, Tiger bits welded to an Alpine make an Alger, Alpine bits welded to a Tiger make a Tiger. To bad I know I would not buy an Alger project for 15k

Nostalgia · Nov 7, 2009

Jim E said:
Sounds like he is saying it is an Alger, Tiger bits welded to an Alpine make an Alger, Alpine bits welded to a Tiger make a Tiger. To bad I know I would not buy an Alger project for 15k

No, nor would I

We're going to see if we can get the car for $5-7k. At that price I could just clean it up and have a good time blasting around with it.

Thanks again for the help, everyone.

-Joe

Sownman · Nov 7, 2009

As far as I know No LRO Tigers (Alpine 260's) were ever sold in the US.
Per Norm only 53 are known to exist and only nine of them in the US.
Norm might say 10 in the US but I know one of them has recently gone to the UK.

Every Mk1 and Mk1a Tiger with an ID plate is called an Alpine 260 but only
a very few have the LRO chassis number or the Alpine 260 badges.

64beam · Nov 7, 2009

Hi,

It's a shame that the car turned out to be an Alger, but imagine how peed off you would be if you had bought it. I know I would be steaming

. That makes sense why all the non-standard items. Having a closer look, some of the engine bay brackets are missing which the Tiger would have used, which most people would not remove in an upgrade. I would also be notifing the seller that their Tiger is a fake and change their listing (if it is listed somewhere).

Thank god for the registry and Norm.

Regards, Robin.

Alpineracer8 · Nov 9, 2009

I feel the same way that Robin does...thank goodness for Norm and his info!!! It sounds like he just saved you from getting burned.

By the way, Robin, I read your reply to my comment about the fact that this was not a European Tiger. I certainly didn't mean to offend you or step on your toes; that was most assuredly not my intention. I have read that article that you linked in your post and, whereas it does say that they sold some LRXFE Tigers in Europe, the LROFE Tigers in the U.S. were brought in by private citizens. It certainly makes it look like the LROFE cars were never sold in the U.S. but, knowing that one should probably never say "never" when it comes to stuff like this, it is feasible that a few may have made their way over here from the factory (I still have strong doubts about that, though). Perhaps the best way of saying it would be that the LROFE cars were "intended" for the European market.

Strangely enough, we have (had) two LROFE Tigers in the Oklahoma City area. I say "had" because one of them got sold to another member on this list last year and he whisked it away to California, leaving us Okie Tiger people the poorer for it.

I know the story on it and how it got here (a member of the armed forces had it shipped back after his tour in Europe). I have on idea about the other one.

By the way, Joe (and anyone else interested), I know of another Tiger in the OKC area that may be coming up for sale. The fellow who owns it is a good friend of mine and, if and when he gives the word, I'll let everyone know about it. All I can say about it right now is that it is a Mk1A, it needs a total restoration and it has been TAC'd. Further info will be posted on the Tiger thread if and when the car does come up for sale.

Take care everyone,

64beam · Nov 9, 2009

Alpineracer8 said:
I feel the same way that Robin does...thank goodness for Norm and his info!!! It sounds like he just saved you from getting burned.

By the way, Robin, I read your reply to my comment about the fact that this was not a European Tiger. I certainly didn't mean to offend you or step on your toes; that was most assuredly not my intention. I have read that article that you linked in your post and, whereas it does say that they sold some LRXFE Tigers in Europe, the LROFE Tigers in the U.S. were brought in by private citizens. It certainly makes it look like the LROFE cars were never sold in the U.S. but, knowing that one should probably never say "never" when it comes to stuff like this, it is feasible that a few may have made their way over here from the factory (I still have strong doubts about that, though). Perhaps the best way of saying it would be that the LROFE cars were "intended" for the European market.

Strangely enough, we have (had) two LROFE Tigers in the Oklahoma City area. I say "had" because one of them got sold to another member on this list last year and he whisked it away to California, leaving us Okie Tiger people the poorer for it. I know the story on it and how it got here (a member of the armed forces had it shipped back after his tour in Europe). I have on idea about the other one.

By the way, Joe (and anyone else interested), I know of another Tiger in the OKC area that may be coming up for sale. The fellow who owns it is a good friend of mine and, if and when he gives the word, I'll let everyone know about it. All I can say about it right now is that it is a Mk1A, it needs a total restoration and it has been TAC'd. Further info will be posted on the Tiger thread if and when the car does come up for sale.

Take care everyone,

Hi Andy,

Absolutely no offence taken

. Generally, I don't normally post things that don't have some truth to it. I can still stand to be corrected, but it was just this time I remembered reading about Euro Tiger's in the article.

Kind Regards, Robin.