Coil on my SV is "hot..."

[RootesRooter]

Let's recap....it wouldn't always start with starting fluid, so it has to be electrical in nature.

If the hot coil is just from leaving the key on with the engine off, then maybe its not from a bad coil.

I'd try temporarily replacing the Petronix with points. If it still occasionally conks out, then on to the ignition switch.

For the more electrically-inclined posters out there: if the engine ground strap was very loose or down to just a couple of strands of wire, could you have these intermittant ignition failures but still be able to crank the starter?

 

[RootesRacer]

Tom H... You just made something clear to me.... I removed the High Tension wire during this exercise of checking compression. And your explanation gives valid reason why the coil was "very Hot".

Now to continue trouble shooting.

Thanks,

DanR

Unless you were cranking while the leads were off, this is not the reason the coil got hot.


You should also NEVER just disconnect the coil secondary and crank it BTW.
As Tom said, the voltage goes to a high potential and the current HAS to go somewhere.
If the coil tower cant find a convenient path to earth, the secondary windings will break down and the coil is compromised or destroyed.

 

[DanR]

I did take the High Tension Coil wire from the coil to the distributor "out" while cranking for the cylinder compression test.

I did leave the Ignition Switch in the "ON" Position all-the-while I was doing the compression testing.

DanR

 

[RootesRacer]

Whats done is done. If the engine still runs strong, you probably didnt hurt the coil. (for future testing, connect a spark plug to the secondary wire, be sure to ground the threaded section like its installed in the head)

I think you are going to find that the hot coil scenario is just one of the wonderful side effects of owning a pertronics ignition (along with other features I will spare you for now).

Pretty much all the better aftermarket ignitions know to turn the coil off if the engine has not cranked for a while.
The common IC (chip) that the OEMs used for single coil ignition for decades even had that feature designed in (80s technology).

Even points have some probability that the engine will stop with the points in an open condition. Pertronics turns the coil on regardless of the engines position and turns it off (to fire) as the magnet passes the Hall effect sensor and the magnetic polarity reverses. This means that at 0 RPM, you have guaranteed 100% dwell, which makes for a hot coil if the engine is not running.

YMMV

 

[Tom H]

Rootes Racer said:

Whats done is done. If the engine still runs strong, you probably didnt hurt the coil. (for future testing, connect a spark plug to the secondary wire, be sure to ground the threaded section like its installed in the head)

Not at all sure why you would not simply disconnect the primary of the coil while doing compression testing,

Secondly, you seem to think Dan has the engine now running. I don't think so. You may have gotten confused when Greggers posted his past issue and how he solved it.

Dan, I hope you find the problem. Couple things to check. You say you do not have the ballast resistor installed, or at least not connected. On most SV's there is a wire (white with Grn stripe) in a black plastic sleeve, that runs across the top of the firewall from the solenoid and then connects to the + side of the coil. The purpose of this wire, when connected, is to bring +12 V directly from the solenoid to the coil, bypassing the ballast resistor, but only while the solenoid is engaged and the engine is cranking. Do you still have that wire in place? If so what is it connected to? If you are not using the ballast resistor you should disconnect that wire at both ends.

I do not think the ignition switch is part of your problem. I did suspect it in Greggers case, because I suspected that he was only getting power to his coil by way of the aforementioned wht/ grn bypass wire. To assure the switch is OK, do this: With no Wht / Grn wire connected, verify that you have +12 V at the +Term of the coil when the Ign is turned on. Then again test that you still have +12 V ( or so) while cranking. It seems to me possible, although I have not seen such, that you COULD have 12 V with Ign ON, but then the switch contacts are loose inside and when you turn to the Start position, there is no +12 to the coil.

Good luck, Tom

 

[DanR]

My engine is not running at present.

I do not have the Ballast resistor because Pertonix says no.

I am using Pete's Wiring Harness and to the best of my knowledge there is no white wire w/grn stripe.

I changed out the Ign switch, still will not start.
Plan to change out the distributor to original.

Thanks Much Guys,

DanR

 

[Tom H]

In all your posts I have not seen anywhere that says you have checked the static ignition timing and made sure that the distributor clamp is tight to assure that the timing isn't shifting. That could be the problem.

Regarding Pete's wiring, I have a copy of his instructions and I do not see anywhere where he said to remove that wht/grn wire in a black sleeve. It's not part of the harness that he says to remove. So verify that it's not still there. See this picture:

http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/plugin...?categoryid=3&p17_sectionid=2&p17_imageid=345

See the black wire draped across the heater hose (just where it enters the firewall ) and is connected to the coil. That's teh wire I am speaking of.



Tom

 

[Greggers]

Regarding Pete's wiring, I have a copy of his instructions and I do not see anywhere where he said to remove that wht/grn wire in a black sleeve. It's not part of the harness that he says to remove. So verify that it's not still there.

I also have Paul A's kit, and as a part of step one, I ripped all the original wires out before starting. So I don't have the white/green wire hooked up either. I made the assumption that the pink coil wire from the ignition switch fed the coil everything it needs. Like Dan, I have the Pertronix coil, so I don't have a ballast resistor either.

Is that why my Pertronix never popped while cranking, because there wasn't current there to pop on?

After ripping out all the original wires, the only ones I've added back in were the wiper motor wires.

 

[DanR]

Tom H.... I have checked the static ignition timing and made sure that the distributor clamp is tight to assure that the timing isn't shifting. It is exactly where it was went I first got her running!

According to Pete's Wiring, and comments from the Forum I removed "all" wiring from my '67 SV before I started and like you I do not see anywhere where he said to remove OR KEEP that wht/grn wire in a black sleeve.

I believe I did exactly like Greggers in his comments.

 

[Tom H]

RootesRacer said:

Even points have some probability that the engine will stop with the points in an open condition. Pertronics turns the coil on regardless of the engines position and turns it off (to fire) as the magnet passes the Hall effect sensor and the magnetic polarity reverses. This means that at 0 RPM, you have guaranteed 100% dwell, which makes for a hot coil if the engine is not running.

I'll have to verify this, but if this were true, then how would I have set the static timing? IIRC the Pertronix acted just like points and opened, and stayed open, at the appropriate point of rotation.

Tom

 

[RootesRich]

Dan, with all the talk of hot coils, ignition switches, etc, I'm having a hard time figuring out what your current setup is. Would you mind recapping what you have currently installed (pertronix coil and dizzy v. stock coil and dizzy)?

Based on your earlier posts and my poor track record with Pertronix equipment, I suspect the Pertronix module in the dizzy is failing or has failed hence the weak spark/ no spark. I've had nearly the exact same symptoms when my modules were in the process of failing. However, if you've since reinstalled the stock dizzy and points, my theory is out the window. I just can't tell from the posts what you've done to the ignition system since the first post.

 

[Tom H]

Dan, Greg, regarding Pete's wiring: I must ask Dan if he ever got his tach to work. I have notes from last Aug. and it was not resolved at the time. But now I see he is using Pete's wiring and that can get confusing. Dan, if you used the pink wire to send power to the coil from the Ign switch, like Greg did, then there is no current thru the wire that loops thru the tach. This is not a problem for Greg since he used some aftermarket tach that works on a different wiring arrangement. Pete's instructions say to use the original white wire (which goes thru the tach) to power the coil from the ign switch.

I don't think any of this is involved in Dan's present issue, but if we don't know how everything is wired we might miss something.

Tom

 

[RootesRacer]

RootesRacer said:


I'll have to verify this, but if this were true, then how would I have set the static timing? IIRC the Pertronix acted just like points and opened, and stayed open, at the appropriate point of rotation.

Tom

Because the nature of the pertronics design has the magnet "open" the transistor at a very narrow angular interval compared to points.

Smoking the coil and module is legendary on pertronics ignitions.
How they got so popular, I will never know. How people smoke them, then go back and buy another is a better trick yet.

 

[DanR]

Dan, with all the talk of hot coils, ignition switches, etc, I'm having a hard time figuring out what your current setup is. Would you mind recapping what you have currently installed (pertronix coil and dizzy v. stock coil and dizzy)?

Based on your earlier posts and my poor track record with Pertronix equipment, I suspect the Pertronix module in the dizzy is failing or has failed hence the weak spark/ no spark. I've had nearly the exact same symptoms when my modules were in the process of failing. However, if you've since reinstalled the stock dizzy and points, my theory is out the window. I just can't tell from the posts what you've done to the ignition system since the first post.

RICH, I have not removed the Pertronix distributor since I initially installed it back when I started the new rebuild 1725 engine.

I did however, exchange the Flame Thrower 3.0 ohm a few days ago for testing only to see if the car would start with the original 1725 coil. It also failed to start so, I exchanged them again. I now have the Flame Thrower back in place. Still no go.

I did start a search for the original distributor in all my junk and toying with the idea of trying to exchange the coil, distributor, adding the white w/grn stripe wire Tom has spoken of as well as a few other suggestions that have been made. One of which is still very tempting, remove the engine and implant the 2.8 V6 sitting there biding it time.

DanR

 

[RootesRich]

RICH, I have not removed the Pertronix distributor since I initially installed it back when I started the new rebuild 1725 engine.

I did however, exchange the Flame Thrower 3.0 ohm a few days ago for testing only to see if the car would start with the original 1725 coil. It also failed to start so, I exchanged them again. I now have the Flame Thrower back in place. Still no go.

I did start a search for the original distributor in all my junk and toying with the idea of trying to exchange the coil, distributor, adding the white w/grn stripe wire Tom has spoken of as well as a few other suggestions that have been made. One of which is still very tempting, remove the engine and implant the 2.8 V6 sitting there biding it time.

DanR

Thanks for the update Dan. As I stated in my original post, based on my past experiences with Pertonix failures, I think the module in the Pertronix dizzy is failing or has failed resulting the weak or no spark.

If you have the luxury, I'd reinstall another dizzy with points, set the static timing, and see if it starts. I wouldn't worry about hooking up a ballast resistor right now, just see if you can get it to start. If successful, then fine tune. Good luck.

 

[Paul A]

Good advice from Rich.

 

[albeam]

dan r


I have followed this thread and like others have got a little lost.
However I thought coils either worked or did not work.
this is not always the case as i had exactly the same
symptons you had at the start of this thread. the car would start,
run fine and then just as suddenly it was like the ignition was turned off.
the car would stop , pull over. Lift the bonnet and the coil was real hot.
try to start the car and bingo all was fine. motor fired no problems and off we go. I could never nail what the problem was because it was so intermittent. Finally it failed totally, which in a way was great. I swapped the coil out for a replacement unit . I run a Lumintion unit and have done for 20 years and I really do not think my distributer is all that flash as far as performance goes. I do not know much about petronix units.
I will be interested to see your outcome.

Albeam

B94000273GTHRO

 

[Chuck Ingram]

What about the high voltage wire from the coil to the dizzy?
Not a common problem but Imwould try replacing it
Yes this is from experience.Cold it would start great.
Warm it felt like short of gas.

 

[DanR]

Yours sounds like mine...

ALBEAM, I believe if your reply had my name instead of yours it would explain my situation near perfectly.

Except for the bit about your coil and distributor.

DanR

dan r


I have followed this thread and like others have got a little lost.
However I thought coils either worked or did not work.
this is not always the case as i had exactly the same
symptons you had at the start of this thread. the car would start,
run fine and then just as suddenly it was like the ignition was turned off.
the car would stop , pull over. Lift the bonnet and the coil was real hot.
try to start the car and bingo all was fine. motor fired no problems and off we go. I could never nail what the problem was because it was so intermittent. Finally it failed totally, which in a way was great. I swapped the coil out for a replacement unit . I run a Lumintion unit and have done for 20 years and I really do not think my distributer is all that flash as far as performance goes. I do not know much about petronix units.
I will be interested to see your outcome.

Albeam

B94000273GTHRO

 

[DanR]

Changed ti wires....

Chuck, I changed the high voltage wire from the coil and could not see any difference.

DanR