Bad starter or vaporizing (boiling) fuel?

[hopsedge]

‘67 SV with twin Strombergs
- new plugs, plug wires & ignition coil.

I’ve started having difficult warm starts. I’ve also recently noticed fuel in the pump bowl boiling after turning the engine off following only a 25 minute drive with air temps in the upper 70’s (F).

I’ve read in many other SAOCA forum posts about rerouting the fuel line b/t the mechanical fuel pump and the carbs to a location in the back of the engine bay in an effort to reduce vaporization of the fuel. I’ve also read a little about replacing the mechanical fuel pump with an electric one installed outside of the engine compartment altogether. So, a few questions about this:

1) Are these two things related (i.e, difficult warm starts & fuel boiling), or is my starter potentially going bad?

2) If I replace the mech fuel pump with an electric one, what do I do with the existing mech pump? Do I leave it attached to the side of the block or remove it? If I remove it, what’s left behind (e.g., just bolt holes, bolts protruding from the block, other)?

3) I’m thinking that rerouting the fuel line from the front of the engine (and atop the water pump) to the rear of the engine would be the easiest thing to start with; certainly easier than installing a new starter, or so I understand. Does this sound like a reasonable place to start, or am I blindly chasing a solution to a problem I don’t really understand yet?

thx everyone

 

[Silver Creek Sunbeam]

‘67 SV with twin Strombergs
- new plugs, plug wires & ignition coil.

I’ve started having difficult warm starts. I’ve also recently noticed fuel in the pump bowl boiling after turning the engine off following only a 25 minute drive with air temps in the upper 70’s (F).

I’ve read in many other SAOCA forum posts about rerouting the fuel line b/t the mechanical fuel pump and the carbs to a location in the back of the engine bay in an effort to reduce vaporization of the fuel. I’ve also read a little about replacing the mechanical fuel pump with an electric one installed outside of the engine compartment altogether. So, a few questions about this:

1) Are these two things related (i.e, difficult warm starts & fuel boiling), or is my starter potentially going bad?

2) If I replace the mech fuel pump with an electric one, what do I do with the existing mech pump? Do I leave it attached to the side of the block or remove it? If I remove it, what’s left behind (e.g., just bolt holes, bolts protruding from the block, other)?

3) I’m thinking that rerouting the fuel line from the front of the engine (and atop the water pump) to the rear of the engine would be the easiest thing to start with; certainly easier than installing a new starter, or so I understand. Does this sound like a reasonable place to start, or am I blindly chasing a solution to a problem I don’t really understand yet?

thx everyone

I can reply to #2.
I just converted to an electric pump. My research on the forum told me do not leave the mechanical pump in place but I can’t remember the exact reason.
DanR (Dan Richardson) makes and sells a very nicely fabbed cover plate for the hole that is left when the pump is removed.

…and #3.
I actually routed my fuel lines where you are talking about moving them from, also based on forum research.
Previously, they were routed over the valve cover.
Just a little extra info…when installing the electric pump, I also installed a Holley pressure regulator. It has two outlets, so I ran a fuel line to each carb and eliminated the “T” fitting and I’m happy with how the car is running. I’ve driven it on 90 degree days with no issue due to the routing.

I’m about to install a starter myself but I’m doing it due to a bad spot on the starter giving me cranking issues arbitrarily.
I’m not looking forward to it but at the point I have it done, other than my distributor my entire electrical system will be less than a year old.

 

[Tim R]

I'm not sure what fuel mix you have but in the UK modern fuel will often boil in the pump. One car website I saw said that the modern fuel boils from just 38*C but the mechanical pump is typically 43*C+. The fuel mix of the 1960s boiled at a much higher temperature. We run two of our Alpines on electric low pressure pumps with the pipes routed around the back of the engine bay and this works well. With the standard mechanical pump we re-routed the pipes as shown in this video. A one-way valve is a good addition as it helps to keep fuel at the carb(s) so that you have something to start off with if you park the car up for a short time after a run.
Tim R

 

[Mike O'D]

Here in Ohio they switch over to "winter blend" fuel sometime in the fall. I drive my Alpine deep into the fall and even in the winter on dry days if there is no salt residue on the roads. That being the case, I end up filling up with the high vaporization pressure winter blend gas at some point. If I don't get it used up quickly enough in the spring, I will see the boiling in the pump on a warm day. It doesn't cause a starting issue, but sure doesn't want to idle. Once that's used up and I fill up with summer blend, I have never had a problem even on the hottest days. If the starter is turning the engine over properly, that's all it is supposed to do. It has nothing else to do with starting.

Tod - interested in what you mean by "bad spot on the starter". What is the symptom of that?

 

[Silver Creek Sunbeam]

[QUOTE="Mike O'D, post: 220110, member: 2698"

Tod - interested in what you mean by "bad spot on the starter". What is the symptom of that?[/QUOTE]

I haven't done a final diagnosis on the starter itself but everything else in the system seems to be doing what it should...parts, voltages and connections.
Arbitrarily, the car sometimes will not crank. Either one or two things happens. It either slow cranks like the battery doesn't have enough juice (it does and connections are good) or it makes a scraping noise.
The first couple of times this happened (slow crank symptom), it did eventually start but really struggled.
Later on when this occurred, it did not start. I left it, went back later and it started right up.
Most recently, it would not start (slow cranking symptom then scraping symptom ) and I rolled it back about three feet and it started back up.
When a car has had these type symptoms before, I have heard it described as a 'dead' or 'bad' spot on the starter.
I'm no expert on starters but believe it has something to do with an issue with the brushes.

If you have any input or a different take on what I have going on with the car, please share.
Replacing the starter is definitely NOT a bucket list item for me. Lol

 

[Mike O'D]

Thanks for the additional explanation. I have not heard of a bad spot on a starter. Ring gear - for sure. If teeth get worn or broken off, then the starter can't engage and turn the engine. That usually results in the starter spinning probably accompanied by some grinding noises. Rolling the car in gear or turning the engine a bit to get to a different spot on the ring gear usually can cause it to engage, but if the spot is bad enough, it may not get passed it. Once the starter starts turning, it is on a different spot on the commutator, so I don't think it's possible to have a "bad spot". I'm not an electrical guy, but it sounds like a poor connection somewhere.

 

[Silver Creek Sunbeam]

Thanks for the additional explanation. I have not heard of a bad spot on a starter. Ring gear - for sure. If teeth get worn or broken off, then the starter can't engage and turn the engine. That usually results in the starter spinning probably accompanied by some grinding noises. Rolling the car in gear or turning the engine a bit to get to a different spot on the ring gear usually can cause it to engage, but if the spot is bad enough, it may not get passed it. Once the starter starts turning, it is on a different spot on the commutator, so I don't think it's possible to have a "bad spot". I'm not an electrical guy, but it sounds like a poor connection somewhere.

No problem. I hope my explanation made good sense. Lol
I think it's probably just a terminology thing. If you Google 'bad' or 'dead' spot on the starter, you get thousands of hits.
Having said that, the phrasing could just be easy verbiage to apply that doesn't accurately describe the actual technical issue.

As far as I see, all connections are good and in place but it is a Sunbeam, so nothing is ever beyond reproach, so I will check again..and again before dropping the money for a new starter.
There is a new (year old) wiring harness in the car and only the starter remains from the original electrical parts.
As far as I know, it's the original starter.

I've seen good input on the gear reduction, British Starters unit and will probably be installing one of those.
I have a tech that works for me that loves digging into things to see what makes them tick or in this case, not tick.
If he wants to take a look at it, I'll report back what he found just for curiosity sake.

I wouldn't have to try and figure all of this out if I could just find the OBD II port on the car. LOL