any one look into a GM v6 for swap?

[the ghoul]

Hey guys.
Im going to be doing a 3800 series II supercharged engine swap into my firebird shortly so I will have the stock naturally aspirated 3800 series II engine, harness, cpu, fuel pump and other bits laying around. Has any one sized up a GM 60 degree v6 into an alpine yet? I was thinking that if it wasn’t too long of an engine it might be a good fit:
- 60 degree v6 is nice and narrow
- Its a push-rod engine so it shouldn’t be too tall
- engine mounts are located forward of center
- engine has been around forever so there is a good number of parts that will bolt up to it that can be found at a junk yard
- supercharged version is more than a hand full in stock trim
- plenty of aftermarket
- very solid running little drive train

 

[britbeam]

I have recently sold my 3.8 supercharged Regal and I measured etc. It just wont fit without major butchering and even then Im not sure of it. I know a lot of guys are trying different engines and hey thats kool. Now the fact is if you want to have a smooth installation and be driving your Alpine quick the Ford V6 is the best option. Im down in the sunny south so I have enjoyed many trouble free miles with the Ford V6. In fact I think I might drive it today. Does anyone know how many Alpines are in progress with the V6 Mod?
Dwain V6 Krazy

 

[Alpine Bob]

How about a GM QUAD4? I think Jan did some measurements at one time, but I dont remember the results. That's one hot engine.

 

[todd reid]

any one look into a GM V6 for swap

First off, the GM 3800 is a 90 degree engine! The 2.8, 3.1, 3.4 family are 60 degrees. The GM 60 degree V6 has been successfully put into an Alpine, I believe Mike T did it recently. If you look through the back threads you will find what you are looking for. My recollection is that everyone who has successfully done this swap has switched to rack and pinnion steering to get rid of the Alpine steering box.

 

[Bill Blue]

First off, the GM 3800 is a 90 degree engine! The 2.8, 3.1, 3.4 family are 60 degrees. The GM 60 degree V6 has been successfully put into an Alpine, I believe Mike T did it recently. If you look thriugh the back threads you will find what you are looking for. My recollection is that everyone who has successfully done this swap has switched to rack and pinnion steering to get rid of the Alpine steering box.

If I remember correctly, Barry Knight found some stock (Chevy Citation?) manifolds that would allow the use of the Alpine steering, but he felt it limited hp potential. Me, I'd be happy with the torque of a 3.4 wheezing through some stock cast iron manifolds.

Bill

 

[RootesRacer]

First off, the GM 3800 is a 90 degree engine! The 2.8, 3.1, 3.4 family are 60 degrees. The GM 60 degree V6 has been successfully put into an Alpine, I believe Mike T did it recently. If you look thriugh the back threads you will find what you are looking for. My recollection is that everyone who has successfully done this swap has switched to rack and pinnion steering to get rid of the Alpine steering box.

Put in rack and pinion steering on an alpine with the stock cross member and what do you get?

Tiger handling without the benefit of the value of a tiger.

Rootes really got dodgy on the steering "engineering" when they did the tiger.
If you are going to put an engine in an alpine that wont fit the stock steering, you owe it to your self and the spirit of the car to put a mustang II front suspension in, or something engineered for the purpose.

 

[miket]

Mike T. here,

yes I used the 3.4. And I know it's a Tiger wanna be, but I couldn't afford a Tiger. I'm 63 and still paying freakin child support.
I got the car and engine each for $500, and the T5 for $60 plus $35 for a bearing. The drive shaft was $350. the Holley was $25. Plus other bits, add $1000.

And I did put in rack and pinion. A LA , Tiger United tech tip. The steering is fine.

Seems whenever the engine topic comes up it's switchs to steering. I'm curious about the Mustang crossmember, or the MGB. I've learned a little more about the geometry along the way, and if you have to see a nice suspension system this is it: http://www.fastcarsinc.com/ifs.htm

Notice how the steering rod is symetical with the lower table. This, I think, is the only way to avoid bump steer.

But the price is nuts.

Anyway, back to the engine. As I mentioned before, getting the engine in was the easy part. The dual exhaust was a PITA because I had to work with the car on 4 floor jacks.

Mike

 

[MikeH]

Mike T. here,
I'm curious about the Mustang crossmember, or the MGB.
Mike

I like the way my MGB handles, especially after I installed poly bushings and a negative camber wishbone set. Has anyone transplanted an MGB crossmember in an Alpine?

Mike H

 

[miket]

Mike,

I've read posts where it was stated that it has been done, but I have't come across any specifics. On the British V8 forum they were discussing dimenisions, but no sign that it went further than that.

One feature of the MGB crossmenber that is nice, is that there are mounts for the rack and pinion on the front. My concern is the wheel bolt pattern. You know how one thing leads to another and then all of a sudden you're spending much more than was planned.

Mike T.

 

[Chuck Ingram]

On my 62 when I had the V6 iI did install the Mustang II crossmember.It worked extremely well.steering was light and easy to align.However it did not work out to keep it when I went withthe Ford racing 302.I used the front end I had in the Lister before the one i built which had the Mustang rack and pinion.I did add Mustang spindles as well which gave longer steering arms that helped.
I now will be building another front end for the 62 ala the one in the lister.
I have all the patrs but just waiting for SNOW so I will have some time.

 

[todd reid]

any one look into a GM V6 for swap

Two follow up points.
1. The Tigers United article that Mike T refers to above claims that the ackerman problems of the stock Tiger R&P system are addressed by doing their upgrade. Between the geometry upgrades that he has incorporated, and the lighter weight / better weight distribution of his V6, I'm sure his car steers better than a stock Tiger.

2. I think any evaluation of the Alpines steering system depends on your frame of reference (and what you are used to). Compared to contemporary Detroit lead sleds it was terrific. Compared to a stock Tiger, the Alpine is clearly better. Compared to contemporay sports cars of similar size and price (MG's, Triumphs, Fiats, Alfas, etc) and its probably fair to say that it's no better than average. Road tests of the era praised the Alpine's comfort and easy of use a lot more than it's performance and handling.

 

[RootesRacer]

Two follow up points.
1. The Tigers United article that Mike T refers to above claims that the ackerman problems of the stock Tiger R&P system are addressed by doing their upgrade. Between the geometry upgrades that he has incorporated, and the lighter weight / better weight distribution of his V6, I'm sure his car steers better than a stock Tiger.

2. I think any evaluation of the Alpines steering system depends on your frame of reference (and what you are used to). Compared to contemporary Detroit lead sleds it was terrific. Compared to a stock Tiger, the Alpine is clearly better. Compared to contemporay sports cars of similar size and price (MG's, Triumphs, Fiats, Alfas, etc) and its probably fair to say that it's no better than average. Road tests of the era praised the Alpine's comfort and easy of use a lot more than it's performance and handling.

Yes and we can always look into who was winning races in the early 60s too.

 

[miket]

Todd,

Very well said.

Essentially I changed two things. I changed the weight on the front end, so technically the car will never steer the same again.

And I changed the "steering" mechanism. I don't have the equipment to test the resulting change to the acherman angle, but to be honest. I don't care.

Otherwise the front suspension is unchanged.

 

[RootesRacer]

A good test to see if your ackerman angle is hosed is the turn the wheel to full lock and back out of your driveway.

If it drags one of the wheels, then you have a tiger.

IIRC this is also the reason that tigers suffer a high incidence of upper fulcrum pin failures, usually while backing up.

 

[the ghoul]

How about a GM QUAD4? I think Jan did some measurements at one time, but I dont remember the results. That's one hot engine.

I dont care to much for them because of the head gasket issues. I know it seems like a minor thing with a car that wont see that many miles but I just dont think too highly of them. I think the echo-tech is a much more stable 4 cylinder with a bit more aftermarket to it.
That and if I were to go out hunting I would find a ford v6 that just slips right in with a kit
I was just brain storming with the parts I have avalible for free.

First off, the GM 3800 is a 90 degree engine!

so sorry
didnt think to check the connecting rod angle before posting.
I was under the impression that the over head cam engines were 90 degree and the push rods were 60...
my mistake

 

[Jaars]

Hi Mike,
You are the same Mike T I sold the Alpine right?
Anxious to see your V6 the GM 3.4. There was another one done in Georgia by a Barry K! Interesting if we could get both together someday.
Robert

 

[miket]

Hi Robert,

Yes that's me. Barry is the person who first advised me on how to install the 3.4. I haven't seen him here or on the MG Experience forum for some time.

The car is running well. A few minor issues, the timing isn't quite correct and I need a bigger electric fan, but all in all I'm pleased with the results.

Hopefully I can take a cruise down to NH to show it to you next summer.

All the best.

Mike T.