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Alpine rack & pinion
- Thread starter RHFG
- Start date
alpine_64
Donation Time
a forum member put in Mustang II front suspension and steering.. question is why do you want to change the steering?
Chuck Ingram
Donation Time
I'm with Micheal on this one.The STOCK Alpine's steering is good.
I installed the Mustang II front in the 62 when I first built it as a V6 30 years a go but then I also had the 8 inch rear end as well.I have also used the Mustang rack.The 62 at this moment with the 302 has the Mustang rack added to the original front end from the 62 and has the Mustang II spindles.It awaits a much modified front end that is sitting on the stand.It is similar to the one I have in my Lister.
Again why do you want to change the Alpine steering?Or are you just curious and having ideas floating around at times?
C'mon guys. This is the dark side.
It's hypocrytical to say you can change the engine, but you can't change the steering. Fact of the matter is, the steering box is huge, not to mention the silly cross over bar, and limits what engines will fit. So if you want to use something beside an old Ford 2.8. the steering has to change too.
Get over it.
RHFG, I used the Midget steering with the MGB steering arms as described in the a Tiger tech tip on the Tiger's United site. the engine I used was a GM 3.4. I'm very pleased with my choice. Parts are easy to get and the performance is fantastic.
I have read that others have used the Mustang II rack and pinion. Seems the Mustang II is popular with hot rodders and is frequently used.
I'm no expert but I've come to the conclusion that the problem for the Tiger and anyone wanting to use rack and pinion steering is that the Sunbeam crossmember wraps around the front of the engine pan, rather than looping below it (ala MGB). This makes it very difficult to get the rack and pinion in a straight line between the steering arms.
Therefore the Tiger R&P is a few inches forward of the arms and the steering rods swing back. I didn't notch the crossmember, so my r&p is even further forward.
So I have come to the conclusion that I have to change the crossmember. This seems to be what Ron Wiseman did (Britishv8.com) but it's not clear what crossmember he uses.
I have found one at Welderseries.com (Canadian I might add) that is very universal. The good news with the Mustang II parts is that there is a 4 bolt wheel pattern identical to the Sunbeam. But it's means buying a lot of parts.
If I do this I think I would like to use coil-over shocks, to get the adjustability.
Mike
It's hypocrytical to say you can change the engine, but you can't change the steering. Fact of the matter is, the steering box is huge, not to mention the silly cross over bar, and limits what engines will fit. So if you want to use something beside an old Ford 2.8. the steering has to change too.
Get over it.
RHFG, I used the Midget steering with the MGB steering arms as described in the a Tiger tech tip on the Tiger's United site. the engine I used was a GM 3.4. I'm very pleased with my choice. Parts are easy to get and the performance is fantastic.
I have read that others have used the Mustang II rack and pinion. Seems the Mustang II is popular with hot rodders and is frequently used.
I'm no expert but I've come to the conclusion that the problem for the Tiger and anyone wanting to use rack and pinion steering is that the Sunbeam crossmember wraps around the front of the engine pan, rather than looping below it (ala MGB). This makes it very difficult to get the rack and pinion in a straight line between the steering arms.
Therefore the Tiger R&P is a few inches forward of the arms and the steering rods swing back. I didn't notch the crossmember, so my r&p is even further forward.
So I have come to the conclusion that I have to change the crossmember. This seems to be what Ron Wiseman did (Britishv8.com) but it's not clear what crossmember he uses.
I have found one at Welderseries.com (Canadian I might add) that is very universal. The good news with the Mustang II parts is that there is a 4 bolt wheel pattern identical to the Sunbeam. But it's means buying a lot of parts.
If I do this I think I would like to use coil-over shocks, to get the adjustability.
Mike
Thanks Mike,
I've had plenty of Rootes Group cars since the 60's, Hillman Minx, Super Minx, Humber Sceptre, Rapier, Rapier Fastback, Alpine, and Tiger and thought the steering box and idler setup simply has too many moving parts that wear and make for vague steering. Given the known issues on the Tiger I would still have this over the other type any day especially driving in a strong crosswind.
Having once put a Toyota 2L and 5 spd into a Sceptre, the biggest issue was the connecting bar by the firewall that limited the engine position, it drove a bit front end heavy.
Just wondered if any other steering arms bolt straight onto the Alpine stub axle carrier.
I've had plenty of Rootes Group cars since the 60's, Hillman Minx, Super Minx, Humber Sceptre, Rapier, Rapier Fastback, Alpine, and Tiger and thought the steering box and idler setup simply has too many moving parts that wear and make for vague steering. Given the known issues on the Tiger I would still have this over the other type any day especially driving in a strong crosswind.
Having once put a Toyota 2L and 5 spd into a Sceptre, the biggest issue was the connecting bar by the firewall that limited the engine position, it drove a bit front end heavy.
Just wondered if any other steering arms bolt straight onto the Alpine stub axle carrier.
.Chuck Ingram
Donation Time
Hi Jim
No it is not a stock alpine width.The 62 had the flares since I first built it
The nice thing on this conversion is the bottom brackets for the A arms one bolt hole lines up with the Alpine's lower A arm mounting holes.The bracket is welded in once all has been lined up.Also if you remember I'm using an original width Mustang II 8 inch rear end.The track is the same for both the Lister and the 62
I do think the Mustang II spindle conversion with the Mustang II rack that I have on the 62 right now would be close to original track width.I had to use spacers to get the wheels outboard an extra 1.25 inches per side.
Now you have me thinking.The 62 will hopefully be in the shop soon.Then I will measureThe Lister will be stored at our daughter in law's place and then I wll be bringing the 53 Meteor(canadian ford) that was my son's home .His 2 girls will be working on it with me as it will be a tribute car.Of course grampa will be paying the shot but it should be a greeat experience.The eldest girl can hardly wait to get dirty.( months til she gets her beginners license
Not doing much right now though as my wife is in the hospital for a while
Chuck Ingram
Donation Time
An MGB arm will fit.The rear hole needs to be elongagated.You will also need to make a spacer.See Tigers United and search technical articles
Chuck, RHFG,
I used the MGB arms. The hole had to be elongated about 1/8". I didn't find a suitable spacer so I stacked about 8 washers. Works!
Chuck, All and all I used the Tigers United tech tip you mentioned but the rack is very far forward.
I consider this to be my highway car. I like to use it for longer rides, and the MGA I use for short windy roads.
By the way, I just picked up a T5 from a Camaro V8 for $75 here in Montreal, but the cluster gear is toast. I have the V6 version in the car now. 1st is about a 4:1 ration. Too low for this car. The V8 version is about a 3:1 ratio which should allow me to get to about 25mph in first. Sorry a little off track.
I used the MGB arms. The hole had to be elongated about 1/8". I didn't find a suitable spacer so I stacked about 8 washers. Works!
Chuck, All and all I used the Tigers United tech tip you mentioned but the rack is very far forward.
I consider this to be my highway car. I like to use it for longer rides, and the MGA I use for short windy roads.
By the way, I just picked up a T5 from a Camaro V8 for $75 here in Montreal, but the cluster gear is toast. I have the V6 version in the car now. 1st is about a 4:1 ration. Too low for this car. The V8 version is about a 3:1 ratio which should allow me to get to about 25mph in first. Sorry a little off track.
Jim,
Back to the subject of steering. I think that everyone agrees that the Sunbeam engine bay doesn't have a lot of space. So if the stock steering box is in the way of getting your engine in, we need to share other alternatives. And I think there has been very little discussion on this , on this site.
Did you use a different crossmember? Or are you aware of anything that will work?
Mike
Back to the subject of steering. I think that everyone agrees that the Sunbeam engine bay doesn't have a lot of space. So if the stock steering box is in the way of getting your engine in, we need to share other alternatives. And I think there has been very little discussion on this , on this site.
Did you use a different crossmember? Or are you aware of anything that will work?
Mike
steering
There are several people building crossmembers IE dales restorations in california and toyz junkie in fallon nevada I've talked to both and decided to build my own which is in the works now. I also went the Tiger Xmember route
Midget rack etc. but the car still has heavy steering at low speed, as chuck said you can use the mutt rack it takes a lot of work to do this, easier to start from scratch the crossmember we're building has a Mustang Rack with a
slower ratio which makes the car steer easier( less input) also the spacer for the B arm should be .687 thick. another reason we're fabricating are own is to get the front track width we want! on another note the Midget rack is wider than a Tiger so the track rod problem needs to be addressed, we fabricated our own.
There are several people building crossmembers IE dales restorations in california and toyz junkie in fallon nevada I've talked to both and decided to build my own which is in the works now. I also went the Tiger Xmember route
Midget rack etc. but the car still has heavy steering at low speed, as chuck said you can use the mutt rack it takes a lot of work to do this, easier to start from scratch the crossmember we're building has a Mustang Rack with a
slower ratio which makes the car steer easier( less input) also the spacer for the B arm should be .687 thick. another reason we're fabricating are own is to get the front track width we want! on another note the Midget rack is wider than a Tiger so the track rod problem needs to be addressed, we fabricated our own.
Thanks Guys
I live in RH drive country and was looking at possibilities of converting a LH drive Alpine to RH drive. One of the problems in looking at suitable racks is that most are mounted at the rear, i.e. pinion in front of the rack and not many alternatives for front mounted rack in front of pinion. So a LH drive rear mounted rack seems to have possibilities as it becomes a front mounted rack on a RH drive car. Any ideas on the best one? I can see now that MGB arms offered to us years ago and discarded as they "didn't fit"...now see a bit of modifying is in order.
We have used a Wolesley 4/44 rack on a race Tiger to get the quicker response
over the normal one, probably similar to an MGA but with shorter pinion.
Great discussion, there's always someone out there who's tried something different.
I live in RH drive country and was looking at possibilities of converting a LH drive Alpine to RH drive. One of the problems in looking at suitable racks is that most are mounted at the rear, i.e. pinion in front of the rack and not many alternatives for front mounted rack in front of pinion. So a LH drive rear mounted rack seems to have possibilities as it becomes a front mounted rack on a RH drive car. Any ideas on the best one? I can see now that MGB arms offered to us years ago and discarded as they "didn't fit"...now see a bit of modifying is in order.
We have used a Wolesley 4/44 rack on a race Tiger to get the quicker response
over the normal one, probably similar to an MGA but with shorter pinion.
Great discussion, there's always someone out there who's tried something different.
Procraft,
I agree that turning the wheel with the midget rack isn't easy at a stop. I think it does about 3.5 turns lock to lock.
Those setups you mentioned are nice but over my budget. But almost all the parts , A arms etc, are widely available from places like speedway motors.They sell a similar upper A arm with the same adjustability.
I was thinking of building my own too. Mechanically it's not difficult but I don't know were to start when it come to geometry. Perhaps I should buy a book on the subject. I've started a locost 7. At this point I'm just following the plans.
But you can see in the photo in the toyz site that the rack is directly between the arms. The other point to observe it that the steering rods should travel parallel to the lower A arm. But i'm sure you know all this.
Have you looked at the welder series products?
Thanks for the input.
Mike
I agree that turning the wheel with the midget rack isn't easy at a stop. I think it does about 3.5 turns lock to lock.
Those setups you mentioned are nice but over my budget. But almost all the parts , A arms etc, are widely available from places like speedway motors.They sell a similar upper A arm with the same adjustability.
I was thinking of building my own too. Mechanically it's not difficult but I don't know were to start when it come to geometry. Perhaps I should buy a book on the subject. I've started a locost 7. At this point I'm just following the plans.
But you can see in the photo in the toyz site that the rack is directly between the arms. The other point to observe it that the steering rods should travel parallel to the lower A arm. But i'm sure you know all this.
Have you looked at the welder series products?
Thanks for the input.
Mike
Chuck Ingram
Donation Time
steering
Dale is building some right hand drive crossmembers(at least thats what he said when I talked to him) I think its correct to assume that the front steer rack can become RHD try Unisteer in cleveland ohio this is who is supplying Dale, also what we are using, these are the only people building custom racks in the US ????
Dale is building some right hand drive crossmembers(at least thats what he said when I talked to him) I think its correct to assume that the front steer rack can become RHD try Unisteer in cleveland ohio this is who is supplying Dale, also what we are using, these are the only people building custom racks in the US ????
Chuck Ingram
Donation Time
Mike
send me an email or PM with your email address and I'll send you pics.Right now its easier that way.I'm away at the hospital about 11 or 12 hours aday as my wife has been pretty sick.I just more or less check the forum right now.
Issues
I too am using a 3.4; also want to upgrade to a modern steering amongst other things.
One issue I have is that there are others out there that have done the crossmember mod, but can't, haven't or don't like to share unless it is in exchange for a significant amount of cash. Last one was over 3000 usd complete (everything)
Well I too am also pay check to pay check and want my car on the road and cant afford aftermarket IFS that bolt in and have tried to find someone willing to part with the proper measurements/angles etc to make my own front crossmember. No such luck yet.
I have looked at several S10, Mustang II and a few others and would still have to modify them quite a bit to fit sooo makes more sense to make or buy one. Can't buy one short of funds so need to try and make one BUT SURE COULD USE SOME HELP :}
I too am using a 3.4; also want to upgrade to a modern steering amongst other things.
One issue I have is that there are others out there that have done the crossmember mod, but can't, haven't or don't like to share unless it is in exchange for a significant amount of cash. Last one was over 3000 usd complete (everything)
Well I too am also pay check to pay check and want my car on the road and cant afford aftermarket IFS that bolt in and have tried to find someone willing to part with the proper measurements/angles etc to make my own front crossmember. No such luck yet.
I have looked at several S10, Mustang II and a few others and would still have to modify them quite a bit to fit sooo makes more sense to make or buy one. Can't buy one short of funds so need to try and make one BUT SURE COULD USE SOME HELP :}