1725 Camshaft Question

[husky drvr]

Do you have a source for never used 1592 cams?

DW,

Not sure if Tim's source is Rootes Post Vintage Spares in Holland but they are listing new cams as currently available - but no timing data on website.

Sunbeam Alpine series 1-5, Harrington

No Summary

www.rootesparts.com

Hope this helps,

 

[Tim R]

spmdr
I will get you some photos of the cams but that will have to wait until the weekend. Here are photos of the various stamped in numbers, there are two numbers stamped into the 1725 cam (which came out of a Rootes 1725 boat engine) and one number on the cam that was in the car and has caused me so much trouble.

The camshafts are being sold as brand new (re-manufactured obviously). They are currently being sold by Speedy Spares in the U.K. , I think that the Dutch Rootes suppliers also have them for sale. The expectation is that they have the original timing.
Tim R

 

[windlessdog]

You might have answered your own question by revealing its a boat engine camshaft , marine Cams are generally ground to produce the Most Torque, at the Lowest possible rpms.

 

[alpine_64]

spmdr
I will get you some photos of the cams but that will have to wait until the weekend. Here are photos of the various stamped in numbers, there are two numbers stamped into the 1725 cam (which came out of a Rootes 1725 boat engine) and one number on the cam that was in the car and has caused me so much trouble.

The camshafts are being sold as brand new (re-manufactured obviously). They are currently being sold by Speedy Spares in the U.K. , I think that the Dutch Rootes suppliers also have them for sale. The expectation is that they have the original timing.
Tim R

Tim... Sorry to be a pedant... Remanufactured can often mean rebuilt...

These are new pattern parts .. or reproduction .. or reproduced

 

[spmdr]

Tim, Thanks for the pics!

As near as I can tell, there are 2 common

Non-1725 cams, Pre-S4 and S4, with marked timing

differences ( Different ID??? ).

By population, there are more Pre-S4 cams out there.

So I would expect a replacement/new/reground cam to be

ground to the pre-S4 specs.

So the question remains, what are the cams specs?

As you are painfully aware, cam specs DO matter...

DW

 

[Tim R]

Windlessdog, that camshaft has not been fitted to a car yet. I bought the ex-boat engine and stripped it for parts. I had hoped to use that cam on this car but I am not doing so now. Whether it is ground to give more torque or as standard I do most know.

alpine-64, the camshafts are new, so pattern parts. I am assured that they are made to the same spec as 1592cc camshafts were. If there were different versions of the 1592 camshaft I can't tell you which version this one is a copy of.
Tim R

 

[husky drvr]

the ex-boat engine

Tim,

Just a question of curiosity, did the marine engine have an alloy head or iron head?

Thanks for your time,

 

[Tim R]

husky driver,
The boat engine had an alloy head, all the parts inside appear the same an a normal 1725 car engine. The bearings, pistons etc are all standard size and relatively unworn. My guess is that a boat engine runs for much less time than a car engine, a number of hours rather than 1,000s of miles.
Tim R

 

[Tim R]

Here you can see the 1592 cam that was in the engine and causing me problems, the 1725 cam from the boat engine and the brand new 1592 cam.

Tim R

 

[bernd_st]

You might have answered your own question by revealing its a boat engine camshaft , marine Cams are generally ground to produce the Most Torque, at the Lowest possible rpms.

Absolutely correct. Never try to use a boat cam in a street engine. Tim, perhaps you should have better kept that boat engine together. That's a very rare beast (ask Limey).
The cams sold via Speedy Spares definitely come from Rootes Parts in Holland and are newly made not reground ones. The owner always tries to make pattern parts acc. to the original specs . No fancy things. We are running a couple of his 1725cc cams in our club with very good results. No problems reported. Have a 1592cc one too which is installed into my S2 rebuild. Not tried yet though...

 

[husky drvr]

The boat engine had an alloy head,

Tim,

Thanks for your response.

It's probably just my lack of understanding about the description "marine" engine as used in the UK. To me, marine usage implies offshore and brackish water environment usage, as well as fresh water. Most marine engines use the surrounding environmental water for cooling - no radiator required or the chance of a chemical antifreeze spill. I'm curious why the alloy head would have been used rather than the iron head? Seems that could have led to a rapid corrosion issue in a salt water environment.

So, in the UK, what were these Rootes Marine engines generally used to power and in what type areas were those vessels operated?

One "rule of thumb" I tripped over about how to compare usage hours to mileage is think of every minute of operation to be the equivalent of ONE mile of road usage. One hour > 60 miles. 1000 hours > 60,000 miles.

Still just curious,

 

[windlessdog]

Old Marine Engine: Sunbeam engine

Engine like the alloy head motor would normally be fitted with a heat exchanger

 

[Tim R]

Bernd,

The boat engine was used in freshwater and was in parts when I got it. The dedicated marinised bits had already been removed. I got the block, crankshaft, pistons, con rods, head, camshaft and timing gears.
Tim R

 

[bernd_st]

Tim ok. Sounds as if it was cheap. Even though still rare and explaining why the camshaft didn't perform on the street. Would be interesting what the archive has to say...

 

[Limey]

Tim,

Thanks for your response.

It's probably just my lack of understanding about the description "marine" engine as used in the UK. To me, marine usage implies offshore and brackish water environment usage, as well as fresh water. Most marine engines use the surrounding environmental water for cooling - no radiator required or the chance of a chemical antifreeze spill. I'm curious why the alloy head would have been used rather than the iron head? Seems that could have led to a rapid corrosion issue in a salt water environment.

So, in the UK, what were these Rootes Marine engines generally used to power and in what type areas were those vessels operated?

One "rule of thumb" I tripped over about how to compare usage hours to mileage is think of every minute of operation to be the equivalent of ONE mile of road usage. One hour > 60 miles. 1000 hours > 60,000 miles.

Still just curious,

Hi Husky, I have one of those boats, An Albatross Slipper the other boat that had this engine was a Corsair. These had a closed cooling system using hull blisters instead of a radiator. Built in 1959 they had the Alpine 1600 engine with twin SU (from a Lotus) and aluminium heads. They had a sea cooled sump (copper coil within) and a water cooled exhaust courtesy of a stand alone seawater pump. The green boat is an Albatross Corsair. C27 is a Slipper at Lake Como. Mine is under restoration. Cheers. Oliver

 

[bernd_st]

Oliver, thanks for kicking in. Your boat resto takes everything to the next level. Therefore any Rootes marine parts should be rescued for the brave guys taking such a challenge. Beautiful boats indeed as we discussed...

 

[Tim R]

Bernd,
Just for clarity the camshaft from the boat engine has never been run in a car, it came with other parts from a boat engine. The camshaft in the car was supposed to be a 1592 that had been re-profiled to 1725 spec. It hadn't been out was clearly profiled incorrectly and has caused me the problems detailed in this thread.
Tim R

 

[bernd_st]

Tim, noted. Appearantly my misunderstanding then...

 

[spmdr]

Tim, After reviewing this post, I find the cam timing numbers you give above

are backwards of the Holbay specs.

Holbay has the INTAKE at 44 and 51

you have the Exhaust having near numbers.

is it possible you have them crossed, intake to Ex?

...Or is the cam THAT screwed up??

DW

 

[Tim R]

No, the cam that was in the car really was that screwed up!!!!

So far I have only driven the car a few hundred yards on the new standard 1592cc cam but it is clearly so much better. I am looking forward to giving it a proper go to on the road as soon as we get some decent weather.
Tim R