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Oil Pressure Regulator Questions

Ken Ellis

Donation Time
Zack, can you do your threads with a die, rather than single-pointing them? You could hold the tube well with a collet, and the die in the tailstock. If you need a gentle touch, just rotate by hand for the prototypes.

And RootesRacer -- are there designs or actual parts you've seen from other modern vehicles that could be used with creative adaptors?

It seems like a design change will warrant test jigs, fast-response pressure gauges... or a way to measure valve position, speed of actuation, and resonant frequencies up to several Hz. If there's a valve unit that already does this at the flowrates and pressures needed, only the plumbing problem would need addressed.
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
One thing you are assuming here is that the original designer really knew his stuff and went to extremes to get everything right. I would say that this is a bad assumption just based on the fact that the thing is such a problem area. If you want to talk about bad engineering in a specific and first-year community college kind of way, the dump ports are square without radiused corners. The typical engineering school will teach this lesson over and over again starting in the first semester, while the physics you are talking about are at least semester 4...and the next regulator fixed this so it was likely an issue. I really don't think the guy that design this knew his stuff, or if he did, he was cutting corners.

The original design other than materials choice was pretty good, the design lasted more than 10 years.
I am unsure which specific OPR you are talking about, I only work with the late SV valves which have round dump holes, not square ones.
The materials issue is that Rootes used a mild steel for the body and a slightly harder steel for the piston. With time and rattle, the harder piston wore a step into the body around its nominal "control" zone and then one day, the piston hangs on the step in the body and you got near zero oil pressure.
This even happened with the latest 1725 designs so the updated OPR valve was not a fix at least for the hanging piston issue.
Had the piston been the softer and the body been harder, we probably would not be having this discussion.

You are right that a hard ball would cause wear into the ID of the cylinder. Unfortunately there is a balancing act going on because if the ball is too soft then the spring scratches it and the ball transfers those scratches to the inside of the cylinder causing even more wear. We have complete control over the cylinder material (within the limits of what can be machined at that size anyway). We have some control over the ball material; I'm pretty sure you can get aluminum balls in most every size and you can certainly get 304 (relatively soft by SS standards). The spring material we are sort of stuck with unless we want to spend $500 on a custom run of 50 springs. That means that the perfect design would have a ball harder than the spring and a tube the same hardness as the ball...possible with the right tooling, heat treating equipment, and rockwell tester, not possible with my setup. I'd like to make this myself but if push comes to shove I could job it out.

There are lots of springs available off the shelf, there is no need to get custom springs made when you have control over the piston diameter and the dump hole positions.
If I was making a body, I would use 4130 prehard which will not require heat treat afterwords as 35 rockwell would be plenty hard for the body.
A ball for the piston would be fine as even if it rattles, the spherical shape will not catch on the wear zone. As I said before, body wear will just result in a slow reduction in low RPM oil pressure due to piston leakby.
Even brass would be fine as a piston material but a brass cylinder will wear better than a brass ball.
Just getting the square piston profile out of the equation is a solution to the true problem. That said a chamfered or radiused piston of any material would probably yield a result that will never fail again.


I've only had physics 1 and statics so far. My understanding of resonant frequencies is that 1.) You almost have to try to get something that is actually destructive. 2.) In a system where forces are applied like this, the only way to change the resonant frequency is to change one of the forces (the oil pressure variation on one end, the spring on the other). Based on these I'd think that increasing the travel would not increase the dampening, and since the flow rate and oil pumps remain the same the only real change from stock to the ball design is the spring used. Maybe when I take physics 2 I'll learn that one or both of these is only correct in basic calculations.

I think that the oil pressure will not significantly effect resonance because the oil will be mostly uncoupled from the piston/spring mass at the point of dump.
Increasing the required piston travel to cause a flow increase means a reduction in mechanical gain. An infinite mechanical gain for instance would be moving the piston an infinitesimal distance into the dump orifice would cause an infinite amount of flow. A closed loop (feedback) mechanical system with high mechanical gain is likley to oscillate because the control lags the stimulus due to inertial effects. How high of gain is too high? I know the electrical analogue for gain phase shift products, but I am not a mechanical engineer. I do know it all comes down to damping ratios being is a certain band.

One other thing maybe you could explain...as far as the oil is concerned, a restriction is a restriction. A round, flat, or convex faced restriction will all be the same. When a ball moves to a point about 0.0001" past the radius it begins to release some tiny bit of oil. The same is true for a piston that has moved 0.0001" past it's face. At 0.01", 0.1", or 0.25" past the radius, wouldn't the oil released be the same (given the same release ports, spring, etc) as a piston that has moved 0.01", 0.1" or 0.25" past the face? If anything I'd think the other half of the ball being in the path of the oil would actually reduce the amount released a tiny bit by reducing the flow?

The radius of the ball will act differently as a valve compared to a flat piston moving into a dump port zone. The ball design has more flow paths than just straight into the dump zone and the smoother flow path will pass more oil than a flat piston does with the same cross-sectional area. Flow can exit the dump port from any direction with the same restrictivity due to the radius of the ball whereas with the flat piston, there is a step right at the interface between the flat of the piston and the dump port.

You say that designing this correctly would require iterative testing. You say this is because of the resonant frequency. The problem there is that you really can't...not without making the thing out of glass, putting it in a glass oil filter housing, mounting the whole engine on a stand, and using cameras or lasers to measure the frequency. Any equipment that would do it by pressure or vibration would be overwhelmed by the vibration of the whole engine or the pressure variances of the oil pump. You also wouldn't see it in the gauge because it would be faster than the stock variances and the gauge is designed with dampening to prevent it from showing those.

I say that I and probably you would need to iterate out a solution as neither of us probably knows enough about the oil fluid characteristics to be able to successfully model the design and go straight to metal.
I feel confident though that keeping the mechanical gain characteristics of the valve close by keeping the stock spring, similar piston mass and then experimenting with orifice size and progression would result in an acceptable result using the car as a test sled and not building a complex apparatus.

I simply could not assume that just putting in a more efficient valve into an otherwise stock setup would result in success without creating some new kind of problem. My years as an engineer has taught me this.
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
And RootesRacer -- are there designs or actual parts you've seen from other modern vehicles that could be used with creative adaptors?

It seems like a design change will warrant test jigs, fast-response pressure gauges... or a way to measure valve position, speed of actuation, and resonant frequencies up to several Hz. If there's a valve unit that already does this at the flowrates and pressures needed, only the plumbing problem would need addressed.

I think that just making a chamfered piston would be a real solution.

I would be nice to make new bodies out of a harder material and to use piston materials that would not wear in the manner known to occur on our engines.
It would be much less trouble to modify our OPRs than to try to adapt other applications solutions to our engines.

Most other OPRs that I see either use a hard brass piston, a chamfered piston or both.

If my lathe could thread I would have made a bunch of better OPR bodies years ago but instead I have had to deal with mine by honing out the soft OPR body and fitting the adjustable OPR mod I documented years ago on the old autox.net site.

BTW, someone needs to pull that all onto this site before it disappears if it hasnt already.
 

zack

Donation Time
I think that just making a chamfered piston would be a real solution.

I would be nice to make new bodies out of a harder material and to use piston materials that would not wear in the manner known to occur on our engines.
It would be much less trouble to modify our OPRs than to try to adapt other applications solutions to our engines.

Most other OPRs that I see either use a hard brass piston, a chamfered piston or both.

If my lathe could thread I would have made a bunch of better OPR bodies years ago but instead I have had to deal with mine by honing out the soft OPR body and fitting the adjustable OPR mod I documented years ago on the old autox.net site.

BTW, someone needs to pull that all onto this site before it disappears if it hasnt already.

I think we are talking about different original valves; the one I am working from has square dump ports and is made of bronze. The issue with this version seems to be internal scratches and warping working together to jam it.

It is true there are a whole lot of springs on the market. The issue is with finding one that meets all the requirements. Since I am basically designing around the spring, the main requirements are a strong enough spring rate with a small enough diameter and enough travel. I went through EVERY spring that McMaster sells and found a total of 2 that could work, and neither is anything like the original (of course everything I know about the original is based on a failed spring). I cannot simply change the piston/ball diameter; I am stuck with 5/16 because any smaller would mean a smaller hole at the base and thus less flow...any larger and the tube would be too thin to make on a lathe. Right now the best choice I've found only has 0.156" travel between 30PSI and full compression. I've actually considered pulling off the housing and drilling the hole larger so free me from these limitations but I don't think I need to.

4130PH is good stuff...personally I prefer 4140PH because it isn't really any harder to machine than 4130PH and is more wear resistant. When I can use these and I need something to last forever but I'm not concerned about rust then it's my go-to. The issue is getting a clean inside bore with a small ID. I know it's possible; people make .22" ID gun barrels out of the stuff...but you are talking about $5,000,000+ shops and I'm using an old hand-me-down lathe with tooling from grizzly. It isn't just a matter of my equipment tho...specify a smooth bore, low tolerance surface on the inside of such a part made out of hard steel and you will get you very high bids from any machine shop that didn't just say "no". To give you an idea, a good quality gun barrel goes for $500+ in spite of being made in bulk.
 

Ken Ellis

Donation Time
Rootes, I went to that site and it's an Akron car club -- doesn't appear to be a forum, or tech articles section. Maybe I went to the wrong one.

On the chamfered piston -- can the original piston be removed and chamfered, then re-installed? Is the chamfering just to prevent it from catching on a ridge?

Zack, I know a shop with a small, but modern CNC lathe open to projects like this. Various parts, or a new body would be right up their alley, and I have very good access to their shop. Don't want to interfere with your plans, but I could probably keep the costs down by running the lathe myself once he gets the CNC side sorted. (It's more of a prototype shop, not a job shop or production place.) A couple friends have small CNC mills, too.

Let me know if I should make inquiries.
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
I think we are talking about different original valves; the one I am working from has square dump ports and is made of bronze. The issue with this version seems to be internal scratches and warping working together to jam it.

Yes it sounds like you are running an earlier one that was problematic.

The latest ones were made of steel and were threaded at the end, not at the hex side. There were 3 designs IIRC, two of which were compatible. There were two different models of oil filter adapters each of which used its own special OPR as the threads were in different places.

Show us a picture.
 

Ken Ellis

Donation Time
Rootes, no joy there either.
I did find autox on the waybackmachine, going back several years. If you can give me some approximate dates, and your username there, I can do a little digging.
 

hartmandm

Moderator
Diamond Level Sponsor
I think we are talking about different original valves; the one I am working from has square dump ports and is made of bronze.

I have two brass colored, maybe they are bronze material, series V specific OPRVs. Both have round dump holes. I am not aware of another OPRV for the series V with square dump holes. The parts manual shows a single OPRV used for series V up to VIN 12219. They went back to the steel OPRV from VIN 12220 on. Based on the parts manual and assuming your vehicle was made in 1965, then your series V OPRV should have round dump holes.

Anyone else ever come across a series V OPRV with square dump holes?

Mike
 

zack

Donation Time
I have two brass colored, maybe they are bronze material, series V specific OPRVs. Both have round dump holes. I am not aware of another OPRV for the series V with square dump holes. The parts manual shows a single OPRV used for series V up to VIN 12219. They went back to the steel OPRV from VIN 12220 on. Based on the parts manual and assuming your vehicle was made in 1965, then your series V OPRV should have round dump holes.

Anyone else ever come across a series V OPRV with square dump holes?

Mike

I have no pictures of it intact but here are the pieces I have:

Ken - I'd like to get this done quickly but if you think you can make up one or two in the short term, PM me.

I tried a magnet on it, not brass. Scratch test showed not copper. It's bronze.

[edit] just noticed the picture looks like the ports are trapezoidal due to angle. They are very close to .25" square, within a few thousandths. Some of the corners are also radiused; not sure if this was intentional because some are not...in fact one looks like they went a bit too far with a flat cutting blade.
 

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Ken Ellis

Donation Time
Happy to check it out, and meet with the shop guys. Do you have a dimensioned CAD drawing? My schedule is pretty light this week...

(I noticed too that the original tube is soldered into the cap. Is that out of the question for the update?)

Going out to the garage to see if I have one 'in stock'.

...and that's a nope, at least in the parts bin. I've got one on a spare engine or two, but harder to get to quickly.
 
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zack

Donation Time
Happy to check it out, and meet with the shop guys. Do you have a dimensioned CAD drawing? My schedule is pretty light this week...

(I noticed too that the original tube is soldered into the cap. Is that out of the question for the update?)

Going out to the garage to see if I have one 'in stock'.

I can make some up; it's all in solidworks right now. You want DWG?
 

Ken Ellis

Donation Time
Yes, please. I'll PM my address so you can attach it.
Please include tolerances, keeping in mind that trailing zeroes are significant and can add cost if they're far away from the decimal point.
 

Oldskool979

Donation Time
Opvr

If you are interested, Speedy Spares Services Ltd in UK had both versions in stock for about $30 bucks as of last month.
 

65beam

Donation Time
regulator

FyI,
Pulled a few out of the bins. none have square holes. There were three part numbers for series 1 thru 4 and one part number for series 5. These cover series 1 thru 5.
 

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hartmandm

Moderator
Diamond Level Sponsor
I have no pictures of it intact but here are the pieces I have...

The squarish dump holes look like a custom mod. The spring looks like it is a replacement. The original spring had ~15 coils.

Mike
 

hartmandm

Moderator
Diamond Level Sponsor
If you are interested, Speedy Spares Services Ltd in UK had both versions in stock for about $30 bucks as of last month.

Do you have a part number & name? I don't see the OPRV listed on the Speedy Spares web site.

Thanks,
Mike
 

65beam

Donation Time
relief valve

The squarish dump holes look like a custom mod. The spring looks like it is a replacement. The original spring had ~15 coils.

Mike

Upper right hand side of my photo is the original spring for the late type valve pictured.
 
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