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This Tigger is *so* sad....

alpine_64

Donation Time
Better yet, look at the TAC'd tiger that is marked "alert", and shares a VIN with another TAC'd tiger.

Ok Ok Ok, I'm done now.


Jarrid.. im just going to quote your post on this as it was the shortest so wont make it to long..

You guys should read that story.. Basically car was a real tiger (in TAC criteria) but tags were lost.. the owner gave up and made some tags for it to rego it.. and has the same number as another car.. so the TAC of that number was voided once the other car with the correct tags surfaced.

Also.. you can void TAC if you restore the car again.. if you change parts of the inspection certificate.. riverts on the tags etc.. they will want to reinspect.. so if you car as a big shunt they would want to see it after.. also if the TAC sticker is removed from the car.. also needs a re-inspect.
 

agmason

Donation Time
"Go to "The A List" near the bottom of the homepage...click on 1965...you will see a couple Tigers with TAC
numbers in RED...the code at the bottom says (0000 Indicates a voided "TAC" assignment)

That leads me to believe that a car passed TAC then later was determined not to be authentic...or am I naked here?"

Paul,

Did you ever think of how the TAC number was voided? Obviously, the car passed TAC once so what happened? Did someone rat them out and they pulled the TAC because of rumour? Or did the owner think TAC was wrong the first time and asked for a new inspection and then fail. Does that make any sense? I asked a TAC inspector and Norm Miller a while back on what happened to those cars. I was told it could be a few different scenarios such as car destroyed or dipped while being restored and the sticker is gone. In addition, I was assured that no clone was ever successfully TACed. That is the official story as related to me.

Paul, it must be chilly wearing your birthday suit. I have some extra clothes you can have.

It was around 1997 when I first heard of TAC. I thought it was baloney for the following reasons:

1) Only cars with a TAC sticker are considered legitimate. Every other car is under suspicion even if you are the orignal owner! WTF!
2) At that time no inspectors in the mid-west or east coast. I said I live in Michigan and how am I supposed to get TAC inspected? I was told, "Head west young man, head west."
3) TAC guys were saying that there are dozens of fake Tigers and buyers are getting ripped off all the time. If that is true should'nt there be a list of the Top Ten Thing To Look For In A Tiger? I was told that would never happen because it would lead to more fake Tigers.
4) Where is the list of failed Tigers and the list of real Tigers? At that time Norm didn't have a web site so you could not see any list.

Ten years later and nothing else has replaced TAC. Norm's web site covers #3 & #4 of my objections and there are now TAC inspectors in the mid - west and east coast which takes care of #2. In my case, I changed my mind and will get my car, bought in 1994, TAC inspected. Who knows, it may fail inspection.
 

agmason

Donation Time
I wrote a song about TAC and here it is:

"Send in the Clones"
(Sung to the tune "Send in the Clowns")

What did he do?
What did he buy?
When the Tiger he bought,
was a rebody lie
Send in a clone -
This must be a clone.


What didn't he do?
What didn't he try?
When the TAC inspector,
was standing by
Send in a clone -
This must be a clone.

One day he'll cry -
That much is true.
When he sells his Alpine
as a Tiger like new
Send in a clone -
This must be a clone -
And trick the TAC too!
 
6

65tiger1971

Thank for the help, I will post results. It is suppose to rain here Saturday, if it holds off I may get some pictures.
Daryl
 

66Tiger

Donation Time
Did you ever think of how the TAC number was voided? Obviously, the car passed TAC once so what happened? Did someone rat them out and they pulled the TAC because of rumour? Or did the owner think TAC was wrong the first time and asked for a new inspection and then fail. Does that make any sense? I asked a TAC inspector and Norm Miller a while back on what happened to those cars. I was told it could be a few different scenarios such as car destroyed or dipped while being restored and the sticker is gone. In addition, I was assured that no clone was ever successfully TACed. That is the official story as related to me.

Paul, it must be chilly wearing your birthday suit. I have some extra clothes you can have.

Ok Jeff, I will give you that...it's drafty out here. There are a number of ways a car could have it's TAC revoked...you got me.

But don't give me clothes that you don't have...if you are basing your facts on the "Offical Party Line".

Some people lie (car sellers, car builders, car owners, and car buyers), and some people make mistakes (clubs, inspectors, officals). I don't think there are any dishonest inspectors out there. I would like to think there are no dishonest Sunbeam people out there in the world, but I bet there are.

A-Rod said he didn't use steroids, Bush said there were "Weapons of Mass Distruction"...and are you sitting down? Your parents' may have even told you about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

Let me ask you...

What do you think would happen if it came out that the TAC program let a car slip by because the inspectors were wrong?

People do make mistakes it's called being human (I make lots of them, and will apologize in advance for today's), I wouldn't want to be a TAC inspector, what if they were wrong? what if a clone slipped by and was then sold as a Tiger? or how about the other way way around...what if a real Tiger was deemed a clone? Do you think officials would tell an outsider...Gee Jeff, we made a mistake on your car, sorry couldn't sell your Tiger or got ripped off on your purchase.

Wouldn't they have a lot to lose? If one was a mistake couldn't there be more cars out there?

Other than God, I can't see how anyone can know what Tigers are real or not. Given Tigers haven't gone threw the roof in price, I don't imagine God is paying much attention to them.

Maybe a handful of one-owner cars with enough documentation and enough original paint to show it's original in all respects would pass. Other than those, human inspectors come in and give things their best educated guess. And I can see them being right 99% of the time...but not 100%. Call me a skeptic. Any car that's been repainted is suspect to hidden body work and unholy manipulation under the surface to me.

And I bet Rob Martel and his army of Tier 1 customers could build a Tiger with their bare hands using old Yugos and monkey mechanics that could pass inspection.

Show me an outside source, without a vested interest in Sunbeam Tigers, that says the TAC inspectors are perfect...then I will believe....until then I won't.

I do think the TAC program is a good thing but I don't think it's the be-all...end-all...100% satisfaction guaranteed...but it's the best thing out here in Sunbeam land to protect people.

Until then stay indoors, it's still cold outside and not a lot of fun being naked.

Paul

P.S. maybe we can convoy down together for the Dayton TAC event and see how are cars stack up.
 

MikeH

Diamond Level Sponsor
I wouldn't think it would be impossible for any to slip by. I once heard of a Shelby Mustang Clone taking one of the top prizes at a national event of Shelby cars. And no it wasn't for a "Clone","Recreation","Tribute", or "replica" class. Apparently this car was so well done, it even fooled the so called experts. :eek:
 

66Tiger

Donation Time
Makes you wonder if the details of what makes a Tiger different from an Alpine can't be made known public...

Paul
 

puff4

Platinum Level Sponsor
We restored a Ferrari 330GTC many years ago... it had been hit in the rear so hard that the front seats were up against the dash. We cut the car in half and welded on an entire back end (not an easy task). Later that summer it took first place in the Ferrari division of a major show here in Phila... nobody was the wiser.
 

65beam

Donation Time
tigger

i know i said i was done but i have to throw this comment in. has anybody besides myself ever seen a dipped bare metal alpine body and a dipped bare metal tiger body in the same shop ? i have . if you take the time to compare the two bodies ,it's easy to see the differences and see what was done to the alpine to make a tiger . i saw this when our series 5 was being restored . personally , when we restore a car, our intentions are to never sell the car so the money spent for the restoration far exceeds the value of the car . i can understand what tiger owners are feeling with the cost to buy one now and what would happen if it was later proven to be something else . if it had to be sold, the loss could be tremendous, but that's the risk taken when you buy a car like the tiger , especially with the capabilities of some folks in the restoration business when dealing with an owner that can spend the money to do whatever it takes .so many items pop up on e bay being offered for sale as a tiger part when in reality they are alpine parts also . they also offer items and cars with the shelby name attached when we know that shelby's connection was only with the prototype that george built and was submitted to rootes and then rootes had the tigers built at jenson . those of us that set thru the shelby dinner at suni 4 heard that story first hand .i like both the alpine and the tiger but i continue to buy alpines since i have so many parts plus since so many of our friends own tigers , they do let me drive them once in awhile. i admire the tiger owners with the guts to live with the tiger's quirks .it's just not for me .
 

Sownman

Donation Time
People do make mistakes it's called being human (I make lots of them, and will apologize in advance for today's), I wouldn't want to be a TAC inspector, what if they were wrong? what if a clone slipped by and was then sold as a Tiger? or how about the other way way around...what if a real Tiger was deemed a clone? Do you think officials would tell an outsider...Gee Jeff, we made a mistake on your car, sorry couldn't sell your Tiger or got ripped off on your purchase.

And I bet Rob Martel and his army of Tier 1 customers could build a Tiger with their bare hands using old Yugos and monkey mechanics that could pass inspection.

Show me an outside source, without a vested interest in Sunbeam Tigers, that says the TAC inspectors are perfect...then I will believe....until then I won't.
.

Protecting against errors is why there are three inspectors required to pass TAC. They must all agree. There are as I hear it nearly 200 points of difference between Alpines and Tigers. Each of the three inspectors looks for things at different times (they are alone with the car) They each have their favorite "tells".

Could there ever have been a mistake ? Maybe

Could someone with enough skill, knowledge, and time fool 3 guys ? Maybe
but it would require so much work as to be economically pointless. As you say it's not like Tigers have gone through the roof. It doesn't cost all that much to buy a real Tiger, it's not the same as the difference between a Cobra and a Replicobra

My real problem with the TAC system is that it happens after the fact (the purchase) If there are 200 tells why do I have to wait till after I've spent 30 or 40 or 50K for a car which may really only be worth 10 ? That was a rhetorical question because I know the reason is to keep some number of tells secret to impede those who might want to commit auto fraud. I don't like it though. The concept of Algers and TAC nearly drove me away from the marque completely.

It's funny as it turns out I purchased a Tiger that is really an Alpine, but it's also really a Tiger. Funny huh ?

Steve
 

agmason

Donation Time
Hi Paul,

Here are some responses to your soul searching questions:


"and are you sitting down? Your parents' may have even told you about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy."

Uhhh, my parents told me S C, E B and T F are real. Are you telling me something different? Excuse me, I have to call my analyst!


"But don't give me clothes that you don't have...if you are basing your facts on the "Offical Party Line"."

I have lots of clothes to give you. They are sitting in a bag marked for Salvation Army but you have first dibs.
You don't belong to OPOOSTO, "Official Party Of Obnoxious Sunbeam Tiger Owners"? Maybe I shouldn't be talking to you.



"What do you think would happen if it came out that the TAC program let a car slip by because the inspectors were wrong?"

Thats what Ebay is for!


"If one was a mistake couldn't there be more cars out there?"

I think you are bordering on paranoia. Do you want my analyst's phone number?


"Other than God, I can't see how anyone can know what Tigers are real or not. ... I don't imagine God is paying much attention to them.""

I talked to God the other day. He even has a web site : http://www.rootes1.com/. There is a list of the good and the bad Sunbeam Tigers that He Himself posted. God will even talk back when spoken to.


"I wouldn't want to be a TAC inspector, what if they were wrong? what if a clone slipped by and was then sold as a Tiger?"

I believe they would commit hari kari. Look at page two, section 3, paragraph 4 of "How to be come a God like TAC Inspector".


"Until then stay indoors, it's still cold outside and not a lot of fun being naked"

You know, some of the best times of my life have occured while naked.


Sure, I will drive to the Dayton TAC event with you. But I have to warn you, it will be hot and I may drive naked to stay cool.
 

65beam

Donation Time
tigger

dude, do you ever show up at any shows, invasions or united's with your car ? i'm just curious as to whether i have ever seen your car . if i remember your car, then i can judge your attitude or maybe figure out where your problem with building a nice car comes from .
 

Alpine Addict

Platinum Donor
Platinum Level Sponsor
Dude234 who are you? I am curious.

I am a Steven Kirk a happy Alpine owner (with a rebodied series 2 Alpine) and an original series 5 Alpine.

We all know that there are re-bodied Tigers out there some are good re-bodies some are not. Some are presented for sale as original Tigers some are presented for sale as Algers. Some people are honest some are not, this applies to all "walks of life".

The only people who truely know what was done to restore a Tiger are the owner and the restorer (it they are not the same). Could a rebodied car pass a TAC? most say yes some say no.

There are well known Tiger restorers that have as much knowlege of Tigers as the TAC inpectors and surely could re-body a Tiger paint it and pass it off as original. Anything can be re-created with the right knowlege and amount of money. Also these cars were crudely constructed not built by precision robots.

A TAC inspector is unliky to admit he may pass a re-bodied car or that the TAC process is flawed. A restorer is not going to point out a fake he created it would hurt his business. An owners is not going to admit his car is a re-body (unless he is an honest owner) as it would diminish the value of his car.

Steve
 
6

65tiger1971

Three Sunbeams for sale - 2 Tigers and an Alpine

Wow this guy has 3 cars for sale. The first is a 1967 Sunbeam Tiger Mk1a it is B3820001431 engine 6641 and Paint #39 JAL 661437. Rusty and previously hit in front. $4500 numbers match valve cover

The second is a 1965 Sunbeam Tiger Mk1 B9472179 engine 3164 paint #58 JAL 561706. Rusty. $4500 number match valve cover

The third is an Alpine Series IV Red with very little rust and fairly complete and origional. $3000 needs some hydraulic rebuild and exhaust.

I have some pictures of each- some did not turn out
I can email pictures if you are interested.

Daryl
 

volvoguys

Diamond Level Sponsor
Personally, I believe a little banter between guys can be entertaining and healthy. IMO, the direction this thread has taken in the past few days is anything BUT healthy for the club. The sarcasm and insults do nothing to build camaraderie and Scott's comments a few days ago about the divisions in the marque are dead-on. We're all entitled to our opinions/ethics and spirited conversation is always welcome, but some recent postings have eroded to worthless dribble.

Might I suggest that if you feel compelled to paste someone that you step outside the thread and send a PM? It's just my opinion ......... but I can't help but believe there are number of other members that wish some of you would shut up.

Mark
 

tony perrett

Gold Level Sponsor
Personally, I believe a little banter between guys can be entertaining and healthy. IMO, the direction this thread has taken in the past few days is anything BUT healthy for the club. The sarcasm and insults do nothing to build camaraderie and Scott's comments a few days ago about the divisions in the marque are dead-on. We're all entitled to our opinions/ethics and spirited conversation is always welcome, but some recent postings have eroded to worthless dribble.

Might I suggest that if you feel compelled to paste someone that you step outside the thread and send a PM? It's just my opinion ......... but I can't help but believe there are number of other members that wish some of you would shut up.

Mark
I agree. We should not lose sight of the fact that our cars are, after all, only a hobby from which we take our pleasure in different ways. Once we begin to take things too seriously, it is time to move on.
 

agmason

Donation Time
"dude, do you ever show up at any shows, invasions or united's with your car ? i'm just curious as to whether i have ever seen your car . if i remember your car, then i can judge your attitude or maybe figure out where your problem with building a nice car comes from ."


65beam,

I do show up at car shows, for example: the last two Sunbeam Invasions in Dayton, 1995 United, Michigan and Ohio shows. You are going to "judge my attitude"? Well, you have the makings of a TAC inspector! The only problem I have with "building a nice car" is finding parts. Can you help?


"Dude234 who are you? I am curious."


Alpine Addict,


My name is Jeff Nichols and I own Sunbeam Tiger since 1994. At least it appears to be one. Numerous people on this thread have said there are reconstituted/rebodied Sunbeam Tigers that are good enough to pass TAC inspection. The claim is made that they have passed TAC and everyone knows this is true.

I have a very simple question, which car(s) have passed? No one has ever given me one car VIN publicly or privately, yet there are people who claim to have this knowledge on this list. Instead, I get a lot of flack for asking for proof. It seems to me if someone is making a claim, then back it up.

I'm no great defender of TAC. But nothing else has come along to replace it.
 

65beam

Donation Time
tigger

dude,
if you were at the united in dearborn, you saw the freshly restored series 5 that we showed . done by tiger auto. our first united was williamsburg many years ago and we havn't missed one since . we have been to several invasions with the ones that we haven't been to conflicting with either another show we go to or a vintage race . we also have been to all the suni's, taking most popular alpine at suni 2, first place stock alpine at suni 3,first place and most popular alpine at suni 4 .we're taking two cars this year .both fresh restorations . as far as parts ,you could build quite a car with parts that we have . lot's of nos,martel panels ,etc. if one of my cars breaks , i have everything needed to fix it . the problem is ,my parts are not for sale so i can't help you . doug at tiger auto and i had this discussion this week concerning what new parts i need to dig out for the restoration that he will be starting on some time soon . as long as my wife continues to buy cars the parts we have will be put to good use . you still haven't said who you are . we probably know you .i admire someone that has had the guts to hold onto a tiger for so many years .
 
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