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The Future of Gas Powered Cars for Hobbyists

Discussion in 'General Chit-Chat' started by bkasl, Feb 21, 2021.

  1. Alpine 1789

    Alpine 1789 SAOCA President Diamond Level Sponsor

  2. Aladin Sane

    Aladin Sane Gold Level Sponsor

    I worked in the hydrogen field 30 odd years ago as a young engineer just out of college. There are plenty of problems with hydrogen. Chief among them is that it is very low in energy density. To overcome this in a mobile vehicle, you need to operate the storage tank at very high pressure. It is very difficult to contain high pressure hydrogen, and it has the unfortunate physical property of heating when it expands, unlike nearly all other compressed gases that cool upon expanding. So, a leak from your hydrogen storage tank with self ignite, and then burn with an invisible flame.
  3. loose_electron

    loose_electron Gold Level Sponsor

    yeah, it's not easy. Hydrogen seems more promising for situations where physical volume is not a problem. It's tough to beat the energy storage based upon carbon chain molecules. Hydrogen also has the problem that it's not produced efficiently either. There is some progress there.
  4. Bill Blue

    Bill Blue Platinum Level Sponsor

    Recently, the local paper ran a story about GM's announcement to install 40,000 chargers across the country. Most of the chargers will be installed in GM dealerships. GM wants to make charging stations more available, especially in under served areas. The story also said the chargers would be available to anyone, but did not go into detail.

  5. spmdr

    spmdr Donation Time

    To maybe steer this back to the gas world,

    one angle that I expect MORE of is TAX going through the roof on GAS!

    THEY may not be able to force people to BUY what they don't want,

    but THEY sure can make it expensive to USE what we already own.

  6. Warren

    Warren Bronze Level Sponsor

    They are looking to per mile you. Pretty easy unless you have an electric car or in California one that is less than 5 years old. But sure they will figure out a way to extract the dough from the charging stations and the smog checks and download info on cars older than 5 years old.
    Of course you can have 4 bald tires no brakes since all that is required is a 3 minutes OBD hook up and no check engine light. Do you think regular people will get mad that they are subsidizing Tesla and the people who buy them?
    How many Chevy volts can you buy for the price of one Tesla?
    If their goal is to get people in electric cars why isn't the Chevy volt or a econobox favored. Like everything else it's follow the $
  7. Bill Blue

    Bill Blue Platinum Level Sponsor

    Collecting money at a charging station would be a simple. Total charge wattage times the tax rate/watt = total tax added to your credit card. Home charging, I don't know how it could be done, other than through manipulation of the Smart Grid by the power provider.

    Buying as new Chevy Volt could be a challenge. They are no longer available, having been replaced by the Bolt.

    Tesla no longer receives a Federal tax subsidy on purchased vehicles. They hit the magic number 400,000 (I think) cars, starting a declining subsidy per car, which bottomed out a couple of years ago. Don't know about California. Every manufacturer of EV's received the same subsidy. I think GM and the rest of the guys are still short of 400,000 cars and receiving the money, that is if the program has not run out.

  8. Warren

    Warren Bronze Level Sponsor

    Volt Bolt , the point is still the same. Should not have been subsidizing a high-end luxury car.
    That's just stupid, especially if you're going to promote class envy and the rich getting richer. You don't live in California You don't have them turning off your power because they don't have enough to run people's air conditioners. You can't buy a natural gas powered flash water heater in the Bay area of San Francisco. But it's still costs less to operate than an electric heater. The word coexist only applies to what they want it to.
    Now they're going to ban lawn mowers in California and how are fire areas supposed to get cleared in June 1st of every year lol better stock up on some extension cords now especially the really heavy gauge ones... Or maybe they'll make a 26 horsepower one that doesn't have to comply too CARB rules.
  9. Bill Blue

    Bill Blue Platinum Level Sponsor

    Banning small gasoline engines may lead to smaller lawns and more water for essential use. So it is all good!
    The Tesla hardly qualifies as high end luxury. Besides, musk is not stupid. He knew that in order to succeed he would have to make money with his limited ability to manufacturer cars. He also knew where the profits were and went after them. So the subsidy of "high end luxury" cars was needed in order to produce an unsubsidized car for the masses and were essential in developing the technology.
  10. Bill Blue

    Bill Blue Platinum Level Sponsor

    Time to confess. I am an owner of three Harbor Freight battery powered lawn tools. They are (in order of purchase) a weed wacker, leaf blower and chain saw. As a class of tools, I'd say they are a bit slow but totally adequate for home owner use. The most impressive is the chain saw. This cute little feller with about a12" blade, is capable of cutting dried sugar maple the full length of the blade. The little honey was less than ninety bucks and can clear all the brush a home owner could possibly face. The weed wacker is clearly on the slow side, but can trim a typical lawn on a single charge. The leaf blower requires a bit of finesse. When blowing large piles of leaves, it is necessary to aim at the base of the pile, that lifts the pile off the ground, at which point it can be moved. All three are very capable home owner tools. The industry needs to adopt standard battery designs that would allow any battery of a given voltage to be used on any tool of that voltage.

    That said, I think Cali will be forced to create an exemption for commercial users. However, large mowers, especially riders, are on the cusp of meeting the 26 hp requirement and need only an increase of a few horse power.

  11. Warren

    Warren Bronze Level Sponsor

    Ummm I have 12 acres of land 2 in a brush area. If I had a postage stamp yard I'd be ok with a battery or extension cord. Remember you're Alpine sitting in the driveway is evaporating gas and polluting more than a ULEV car just sitting in the driveway. I wish I could remember the exact number but it's something like 30,000 mi on the quote from my tech car design buddy. If you were that concerned you'd support reasonable adding of evaporative controls to lawn mowers just like on small motorcycles. Or maybe I can sell you one of my piece of crap CARB gas cans. Lastly maybe you'd like to wield a battery powered chainsaw other than a two stroke power equipment.
    I can see the cops now coming out and arresting the gardners and homeowners. And yes I hate the invasion of quiet enjoyment, I have at my beach house during the week because there is no peace and quiet as soon as one gardener stops the next one starts. I don't think that will be any better if they're hooked up to a freaking corded leaf blower to pull their stuff out into the street. But I certainly don't deny them the right to clean their yard.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2021
  12. spmdr

    spmdr Donation Time

  13. husky drvr

    husky drvr Platinum Level Sponsor

    Dream or reality?

  14. John W

    John W Diamond Level Sponsor

    Aptera's CFO (hired recently) specializes (has a 12 company history) in taking companies public. Pioneer Power Solutions (symbol PPSI) that "does" charging stations (as of now, at least), stock is up 197% today (as of 11/8 @ 2:57 pm). Lordstown Motors (which I, personally, don't think are going to competitive in the long run due to everyone else getting into the market, particularly Ford) is still trading at a respectable price. Anything to do with electric vehicles is like "magic" with investors, it seems.
  15. alpine_64

    alpine_64 Donation Time

    The number of electric car companies in China is staggering as is the variety of offerings from small city cars to luxury offerings.
    Lots of theses start-ups have hired european designers and are pouring big money into their products.

    Many of the cars are superior to traditonal mfg electric offerings, however the made in CN tag will likely hold them back a bit... Not to mention the previous market exposure to their homeland products in the petrol sector... But that said there was a time when nobody would take a hyundai or Kia seriously......
  16. loose_electron

    loose_electron Gold Level Sponsor

    And the brilliant thing that converted people quite quickly was the 100,000 mile powertrain warranty. South Korean cars now do quite well on the market.
  17. husky drvr

    husky drvr Platinum Level Sponsor

    The EV challenge to overcome before they can become ubiquitous:

    (watch out - simplified economic, statistical, and engineering info included)

    loose_electron likes this.
  18. jumpinjan

    jumpinjan Bronze Level Sponsor

    Cincinati woman burns (dies) up in Telsa crash
    An Ohio mother of five was killed early Monday morning after her Tesla crashed into a pole and overturned, then went up in flames and the electric battery kept reigniting, as firefighters are warning drivers about the dangers of such fires.

    Christy Corder, 41, crashed her Model Y near Merwin Elementary School in Mason, about 22 miles from Cincinnati, on November 8. The school in the area shut down the following day due to the accident.
    • Tesla cars take 40 times more water in order to put out an electrical battery fire with 3,000-8,000 gallons than a gas-powered car, which takes 500-1,000
    • Tesla has warned that cars can take up to 24 hours to cool enough for responders to interact with and have a chance of reigniting due to the heat from the battery
  19. MikeH

    MikeH Platinum Level Sponsor

    Scotty likes this.
  20. Scotty

    Scotty Donation Time

    I remember reading about military vehicles in the 60's being jetted to run on a variety of fuels not called gasoline. I'm wondering if that's the direction that we'll end up on if and when they ban gasoline.

    Electric cars concern me due to the amount of rare earth material they need. We'll run out of those a lot faster than gasoline and I can't begin to consider the damage that's done to acquire those materials. Plus the batteries - you can buy a car for the cost of replacing the batteries alone. I like the idea but it seems like it still has a lot of growing to do.

    Hybrids are a cute idea that strikes me as more a fad for people that are terrified about the environment, the same kind of people (not all and probably not most) who are concerned about when fireplaces are lit even though fireplaces burned for hundreds of years with no real negative side effect to the environment.

    Over a decade ago there was someone not too far from me selling an Alpine that was jetted to run on Propane. It might have had a V6 in it and had that 'modern model kit' looking front on it that I would have taken a hammer to. YMMV on it but it's just not my thing. I've also heard of someone with an Electric Pine too.

    Curious since it's (kind of) on-topic what other alternate fuel or motors have been put in or run on one of our Rootes cars?

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