bulldurham
Platinum Level Sponsor
I agree w/you Bill Guess I'll correct the problem when I have to .
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SV V6 Restoration
- Thread starter Beamin
- Start date
Be aware: The length of the master cylinder push rod has a big effect on the system. As the push rod is shortened, the rod attachment point on the pedal approaches the over center point, reducing pedal pressure required. The problem pops up when swapping master cylinders that "work" but were never fitted to an Alpine. This is something I have done a few battles with over the years, but never seen much activity about this on the site. I have swapped a lot of MC's because I'm too stupid to do the math to determine the best size, so i swap out cylinders until I find one I like. While I've learned a lot while doing this, the most important lesson is "do it right and do it once".
Bill
Bill
I can only stand so far back from the car in my shop, but from what I can tell. you’d have to be pretty damn perceptive to notice it. Maybe once I get the car outside and can stand back aways, it’ll be move obvious. If that is the case I may add an 1/8” spacer to get things a bit closer, but for now, I’m going to call it good and move on to the next task.
I ended up purchasing a new pressure plate, clutch disc and bearing from Phoenix Friction. It came as a matched set, so everything should play together nicely. It appears to be identical to what came off the motor, so I tend to thing that was not the cause of the problem. I’m starting to think that maybe I just had an issue with the length of travel on the slave.
The MC looks like a stock unit. The slave that was originally installed has quite the scabbed-together rod, which leads me to believe that it was not the right one for the job. Does anyone have any recommendations for slaves that work well with a stock MC on a V6 conversion?
As always, thanks to all for the valuable input!
Andy
DanR
Diamond Level Sponsor
Doug, if you take a look at your Slave bracket (i assume it's jose) you will find the bracket mounts the slave cylinder very close to the headers.
IMO it is too close and gains lots of unnecessary heat from the headers.
The Slave Bracket I designed sits much farther away from the headers, therefore very little if any, additional heat from the headers.
Pictured below are the two brackets.... mine is the silver one
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bulldurham
Platinum Level Sponsor
I like that and it makes more sense. Do you have any ?
DanR
Diamond Level Sponsor
So I’m a bit flummoxed on this one….
I managed to get the engine back in and bolted up without a single ding to the paint. Not entirely without incident….once everything was in place, I attempted to install DanR’s headers and discovered that the V6 Jose motor mounts originally installed had the motor too far forward and I was running into interference problems. No big deal. I was able to raise the motor up enough out of the way to weld in a set of DanRs motor mounts (thanks, Dan!) and all is well. Or so I thought.
I got the clutch hydraulics hooked up yesterday, and for some reason the pressure plate does not travel enough to disengage the clutch. I’m almost certain it is not a master or slave cylinder issue. The first go-around, I adjusted the slave linkage so the throw out bearing was just shy of the pressure plate. My wife was the designated pedal pusher during the bleeding process. She noted that the pedal would come to a firm stop about 3/4 of the way down, and when I cracked the bleeder valve, it would travel the rest of the way to the floor. Once fully bled, she pressed the pedal while I was underneath observing the slave cylinder and it would do its thing, but not enough to disengage the clutch. My original thought was I wasn’t getting enough travel out of the slave, so as a test I adjusted the linkage such that the throw out bearing was already partially depressing the pressure plate. All that did was shorten the amount of pedal push and slave cylinder travel. It comes to a firm stop well before the max pedal or slave cylinder travel and the clutch is still engaged.
Very frustrating. I mated the engine and transmission while out of the car and checked the clutch operation and all worked well. I can’t for the life of me figure out what could be preventing it from functioning now. I’m debating heading down to Harbor Freight to pick up cheap fiber optic camera to see if I can get a good look at the internal operation, even though that won’t prevent the need from having to pull things apart. However, maybe it will give me some indication of where to look.
This is mostly just a rant, although if someone has a magic solution, I’m all ears.
I managed to get the engine back in and bolted up without a single ding to the paint. Not entirely without incident….once everything was in place, I attempted to install DanR’s headers and discovered that the V6 Jose motor mounts originally installed had the motor too far forward and I was running into interference problems. No big deal. I was able to raise the motor up enough out of the way to weld in a set of DanRs motor mounts (thanks, Dan!) and all is well. Or so I thought.
I got the clutch hydraulics hooked up yesterday, and for some reason the pressure plate does not travel enough to disengage the clutch. I’m almost certain it is not a master or slave cylinder issue. The first go-around, I adjusted the slave linkage so the throw out bearing was just shy of the pressure plate. My wife was the designated pedal pusher during the bleeding process. She noted that the pedal would come to a firm stop about 3/4 of the way down, and when I cracked the bleeder valve, it would travel the rest of the way to the floor. Once fully bled, she pressed the pedal while I was underneath observing the slave cylinder and it would do its thing, but not enough to disengage the clutch. My original thought was I wasn’t getting enough travel out of the slave, so as a test I adjusted the linkage such that the throw out bearing was already partially depressing the pressure plate. All that did was shorten the amount of pedal push and slave cylinder travel. It comes to a firm stop well before the max pedal or slave cylinder travel and the clutch is still engaged.
Very frustrating. I mated the engine and transmission while out of the car and checked the clutch operation and all worked well. I can’t for the life of me figure out what could be preventing it from functioning now. I’m debating heading down to Harbor Freight to pick up cheap fiber optic camera to see if I can get a good look at the internal operation, even though that won’t prevent the need from having to pull things apart. However, maybe it will give me some indication of where to look.
This is mostly just a rant, although if someone has a magic solution, I’m all ears.
3/4 master. Not sure on the slave, but it looks to be a knockoff of the Wilwood pull type that so many use. Again, I don’t think its a hydraulic issue. I just disconnected the fixed end of the slave, and now when pressing the pedal, I get lots more travel on the slave. Plus, this was a working car before I took everything apart. Same master and slave. It appears more and more as if something is physically stopping the pressure plate from traveling the necessary distance.
Just spent the last 30 minutes sitting in the garage scowling at the car while sipping on coffee. Came to the conclusion that my best evil glare isn’t going to get the car back on the road any sooner, so I might as well spend the weekend pulling the engine back out and taking a look at everything. Perhaps during the install, I had the incredibly poor luck of a random nut or washer falling down into the pressure plate and it is now jamming things up. Who knows.
Just spent the last 30 minutes sitting in the garage scowling at the car while sipping on coffee. Came to the conclusion that my best evil glare isn’t going to get the car back on the road any sooner, so I might as well spend the weekend pulling the engine back out and taking a look at everything. Perhaps during the install, I had the incredibly poor luck of a random nut or washer falling down into the pressure plate and it is now jamming things up. Who knows.
bulldurham
Platinum Level Sponsor
You said you moved the engine/trans back into the tunnel, I suspect you may have a physical interference w/ the throwout arm hitting
the floor pan area just . Just a rthoughtright of the acc pedal. I had that issue w/ my Series II conversion , fixing it w/ a cut out /box in
w/ a hole to get to the split pin . Just a thought.
the floor pan area just . Just a rthoughtright of the acc pedal. I had that issue w/ my Series II conversion , fixing it w/ a cut out /box in
w/ a hole to get to the split pin . Just a thought.
That was my first thought, but no such luck. I was looking at that pretty carefully when I was underneath the car and my wife was pressing the pedal. Lots of clearance. Ok…lots is an exaggeration. It was challenge to get the cotter key in place, but there was plenty of room for the arm to move forward and back.
The engine is out and on the stand, and I’m heading back out to pull the pressure plate off. Unfortunately, nothing is obviously wrong at this point.
Well, the good news is I’m getting way faster at installing the motor. Guess it’s always easier the second time around. The bad news is I couldn’t find anything wrong with the clutch assembly. While it was apart, I compared the old and new pressure plate. No real differences that I could tell, although it does seem like it takes a little more force to depress the fingers on the plate of the new one. Unfortunately, the problem still exists. Press on the pedal and the throw out arm travels a little bit, then hits what feels like a hard stop, long before you reach maximum pedal or slave cylinder travel.
Here are pics of the slave cylinder and linkage. Please let me know if see any obvious issues. The first three are with the clutch pedal depressed. The last one is with the clutch pedal released.
View attachment 27853 
Here are pics of the slave cylinder and linkage. Please let me know if see any obvious issues. The first three are with the clutch pedal depressed. The last one is with the clutch pedal released.
View attachment 27853 Attachments
I agree with 260 Alpine, it seems as though the problem is inside the bell housing. You describe it as a "firm" stop. Ever try to overpower the resistance to determine if it is an absolute stop? It might damage something, but it should point the way out of this dilemma.
Barry
Diamond Level Sponsor
Is it possible that your wife is not able to apply enough force to the clutch pedal to release the new clutch? The use of a 3/4" clutch master cylinder increases the required force by 44% as compared to the factory 5/8" clutch master cylinder.
For a typical single-disc "diaphragm" (aka, Rockford) or "coil-spring" (aka, Borg & Beck) style clutch cover assembly, depressing the clutch pedal about 4"-5" causes the throw-out bearing contact face to move about 0.400" to 0.500" which causes the pressure plate to move about 0.040" to 0.050" which "disconnects" the clutch disc from the engine. No matter the type of clutch release system, the movements of the clutch pedal, throwout bearing contact face and pressure plate are the same.
You can test the function of the new clutch by putting the assembled flywheel / clutch disc / clutch cover in a hydraulic press and slowly pushing the "release fingers." Lots of "stored energy", so BE CAREFUL.
For a typical single-disc "diaphragm" (aka, Rockford) or "coil-spring" (aka, Borg & Beck) style clutch cover assembly, depressing the clutch pedal about 4"-5" causes the throw-out bearing contact face to move about 0.400" to 0.500" which causes the pressure plate to move about 0.040" to 0.050" which "disconnects" the clutch disc from the engine. No matter the type of clutch release system, the movements of the clutch pedal, throwout bearing contact face and pressure plate are the same.
You can test the function of the new clutch by putting the assembled flywheel / clutch disc / clutch cover in a hydraulic press and slowly pushing the "release fingers." Lots of "stored energy", so BE CAREFUL.
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I think I might be on to something. I was staring at the pile of old parts last night and noticed the raised tear drop on one side of the bearing mounting groove, which I completely forgot about. Its very possible I’ve got the bearing installed 180 degrees out. The only thing I check yesterday when I pulled the engine was that the clutch fork moved freely back and forth. I won’t get a chance to pull the motor again until this evening to find out for sure.
