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Starter issues.

Like I said the starter turns freely buy hand. This would suggest that it's not seized
and also, that the gear is not engaged as I would be turning the engine by hand purely
buy turning a 10mm socket with my fingers.

My tester has probes not clips and I was only blessed with two hands at birth.
I am on my own today. Perhaps another day but the voltage drop is measured
when the engine is cranking , is it not? The engine isn't cranking though.

I'm not sure if you saw the update on the electrical issues. Yes, my other alpine's lights
and blower etc. all work without starting the car.

So it would seem I have deeper issues here. Sorry for the frustration if that came across.
All help is much appreciated!
 
Scotty said:
Is the car somehow stuck in gear? A clunk means it's getting power but not strong enough to turn anything? I mean you got other clues too. Dead battery? Battery wire somehow not 'connecting' from the battery like it should? Both ignition switches maybe bad?

Just... Bizarre.
Click to expand...
Yes, it's a conundrum and probably something incredibly simple. The car shifts in and out of gear. I didn't try to push it out of gear as I'm in an incredibly small space and above pavers. I'm sure some time this weekend I'll be posting an answer that confirms that I am a muppet. lol
 
OK, engine is free, not stuck. Starter is free, not stuck. Voltage drop or loss in circuit to starter...... if battery is good then have voltage drop in positive or negative circuit: Positive battery connection, cable, connection to solenoid, solenoid, cable to starter, brushes, commutator. On the negative side, battery connection, cable to chassis, cable from chassis to engine.
Maybe turn on instrument panel lamps, observe while attempting to crank. Do they remain bright, or dim a little, or dim a lot?
Key on, engine off voltage should be about 12.5 V. Cranking voltage should be 10.2 to 11 volts.
With voltmeter, cranking volt test at battery can be done from driver's seat.
Voltage drop test from battery positive to starter positive requires a 12 foot long test lead with alligator clips. Alligator clip for meter connections. Meter positive to battery positive, meter negative to starter positive. Reading should not exceed one half volt.
Voltage drop on negative side; meter negative to battery negative, meter positive to engine block. Voltage drop should not exceed one-quarter volt.
Also can remove starter and energize with battery jumper cables, should spin like crazy and buzz against the bench-top a bit.
Can push-start vehicle, get it rolling, jump in and bump start it in second gear.
 
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Shannon Boal said:
OK, engine is free, not stuck. Starter is free, not stuck. Voltage drop or loss in circuit to starter to starter...... if battery is good then have voltage drop in positive or negative circuit: Positive battery connection, cable, connection to solenoid, solenoid, cable to starter, brushes, commutator. On the negative side, battery connection, cable to chassis, cable from chassis to engine.
Maybe turn on instrument panel lamps, observe while attempting to crank. Do they remain bright, or dim a little, or dim a lot?
Key on, engine off voltage should be about 12.5 V. Cranking voltage should be 10.2 to 11 volts.
With voltmeter, cranking volt test at battery can be done from driver's seat.
Voltage drop test from battery positive to starter positive requires a 12 foot long test lead with alligator clips. Alligator clip for meter connections. Meter positive to battery positive, meter negative to starter positive. Reading should not exceed one half volt.
Voltage drop on negative side; meter negative to battery negative, meter positive to engine block. Voltage drop should not exceed one-quarter volt.
Also can remove starter and energize with battery jumper cables, should spin like crazy and buzz against the bench-top a bit.
Can push-start vehicle, get it rolling, jump in and bump start it in second gear.
Click to expand...
I'll try to get it lifted over the weekend and check my grounds. It's just in an awkward spot in a tight space on uneven ground at the moment. Plus it would be difficult to move and then be on soft even more uneven ground. I didnt anticipate it not starting obviously! Thanks for the info. Did you read the part about my electronics only functioning when the key is in the (against the spring) start position?
Shannon Boal said:
where they are
Click to expand...
 
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Paul67 said:
Right now however the lights do not work unless the key is in the start position.
Click to expand...
Sounds like some possible creative rework of the wiring. Normally the parking/running lamps, gauge lights, and head lights are independent of the ignition switch. Flashers and brake lights are normally on the ignition switch circuit. You will need to trace wires to see what is what.
 
Try putting the car in top gear .. then rock the car back and forth a few times and see if you suddenly get more movement and hear a clunk. Then try and start it
 
Paul67 said:
I'll try to get it lifted over the weekend and check my grounds. It's just in an awkward spot in a tight space on uneven ground at the moment. Plus it would be difficult to move and then be on soft even more uneven ground. I didnt anticipate it not starting obviously! Thanks for the info. Did you read the part about my electronics only functioning when the key is in the (against the spring) start position?
Click to expand...
Okay the lights should come on with no key in the ignition. And the bypass for this will be to go to the starter solenoid and jumper on its small wire to energize the solenoid directly that will take the ignition switch and fuse box and all that circuitry out of the question. I think that there is something miswired with your ignition switch but that may have happened after you tried substituting a replacement switch.
 
Run a test lead from the starter to the meter so you can see the voltage when trying to crank (should be around 10v+/- under load).
Final thought-pull the starter out and bench test with jumper cables. It should jump to life with the pinion jumping in.
I have a box of starters that are dead or bad bushings. Instead of trying to fix them I bought a re-manufactured starter. Rockauto has a selection of seven starters starting around $50. + core https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=535540&cc=1440554&pt=4152&jsn=595
 
I managed to get the car up on ramps today. The gearbox mount braided strap is there but very oily.
The strange electrical issues were from me working too long and stupidly misconnecting a wire on the starter
solenoid after Id taken it off to clean it up.
So, the electrical is all good again sans the starter not cranking. I checked the grounds and wire brushed
all of the mounting bolts topside before reattaching.

Being underneath I thought would be a good place to give the starter a swing with a mallet but I found
that there was no room to do so. I ended up using a large pipe wrench from the top to tap it where I could.
I know this will annoy many of you but still no voltage drop tests.

But my key now, after a few well-placed blows on the starter, will coax some very slow almost silent gritty
rotation from the starter - nothing even remotely close to cranking. So, it seems that its toast.
When I get a chance I'll pull it, and bench test it.
I have a couple of starters available that I can swap out.
 
Last edited:
Paul67 said:
I managed to get the car up on ramps today. The gearbox mount braided strap is there but very oily.
The strange electrical issues were from me working too long and stupidly misconnecting a wire on the starter
solenoid after Id taken it off to clean it up.
So, the electrical is all good again sans the starter not cranking. I checked the grounds and wire brushed
all of the mounting bolts topside before reattaching.

Being underneath I thought would be a good place to give the starter a swing with a mallet but I found
that there was no room to do so. I ended up using a large pipe wrench from the top to tap it where I could.
I know this will annoy many of you but still no voltage drop tests.

But my key now, after a few well-placed blows on the starter, will coax some very slow almost silent gritty
rotation from the starter. So, it seems that its toast. When I get a chance I'll pull it, and bench test it.
I have a couple of starters available.
Click to expand...
Excellent diagnosis! If a hammer makes it work, it is internal problem. Brush/commutator....you make be able to clean up the commutator with coarse emery cloth and make it work. I have been converting to Nippon Denso gear reduction type starters, and suggest you consider that. They draw less current and spin a hot motor faster.....Sunbeam Specialties and others sell them.
 
Now that the electrical is sorted— lights on, my next step would be to pull the starter from the car and bench test it.
— jumper cables.
If it does not spin, you have at minimum found the problem. If it does spin, I would put it back in the car and hit the key again assuming all my jostling had cleared some corrosion from somewhere.

You can always buy a new gear reduction starter— clearly identifying the problem would be my goal.

Nice job on the electrical—It seems we all spend time repairing our repairs.
Be well
 
If you need to replace it, I would replace it with a gear reduction starter spins the engine much faster and less strain on the electrical system.
 
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