stevenalcala
Silver Level Sponsor
The Sebring Alpine will be on the track Thur.(8-23) Fri. and Sat.
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Enjoy.
Sebring Alpine to run at Monterey
- Thread starter stevenalcala
- Start date
jdoclogan
Platinum Level Sponsor
This will be fun and informative seeing the sibling (#43) to my (#41) Sebring Alpine on the track. It will give me inspiration going forward on #41's restoration. I just completed the strip down to the body only status. Now #41 is ready to go skinny dipping in a paint/body putty/rust removing process. Steven your assistance has been and will be a highlight in #41's rebirth. See you in the Laguna Seca pits. I'm willing to turn a wrench or ??? if you need me.
Attachments
65beam
Donation Time
What are you referring to when you say "opening panels" ?Jerry... the opening panels were already aluminium to save weight... Removing them all together is just extreem
jdoclogan
Platinum Level Sponsor
Micheal too funny. I will transfer #41's opening panels to Alcala at the Monterey reunion next week. Alcala is the best person in the world to perform the bodywork and enhancements on these extremely rare Alpine aluminum components.
I just got a call from a 1962 Series II seller last night. He has two hardtops with the complete car. I will go and look at it tomorrow. If I get this Series II that will add to my significant Sunbeam parts bin going forward with this project. I also have a Series IV with an original 46,xxx miles and I will probably use its' strong rebuilt 1592 engine for this project (race engines don't tend to last long - no matching numbers on this component). It is a debate I keep having with myself as to using the 1592 engine (original Racing configuration) or select from the several 1725 engines I have. Any input would be welcomed from all you Sunbeamers. I stopped by Jan Servatis in Ohio during the trip to Vermont to get #41. He had a freshly built 1725 with Chevy rods etc. That intrigued me, but, Jan wanted to keep it for any future project he may encounter. I do like to stay true to the original status of a project rather than personalizing it with this and that. Just like Steven Alcala I definitely won't be rebodying this project and then call it "the" 1962 Factory Works 12 Sebring race car. With great respect and admiration I give Alcala accolades for taking a significantly rusted #43 and keeping the original body intact.
I just got a call from a 1962 Series II seller last night. He has two hardtops with the complete car. I will go and look at it tomorrow. If I get this Series II that will add to my significant Sunbeam parts bin going forward with this project. I also have a Series IV with an original 46,xxx miles and I will probably use its' strong rebuilt 1592 engine for this project (race engines don't tend to last long - no matching numbers on this component). It is a debate I keep having with myself as to using the 1592 engine (original Racing configuration) or select from the several 1725 engines I have. Any input would be welcomed from all you Sunbeamers. I stopped by Jan Servatis in Ohio during the trip to Vermont to get #41. He had a freshly built 1725 with Chevy rods etc. That intrigued me, but, Jan wanted to keep it for any future project he may encounter. I do like to stay true to the original status of a project rather than personalizing it with this and that. Just like Steven Alcala I definitely won't be rebodying this project and then call it "the" 1962 Factory Works 12 Sebring race car. With great respect and admiration I give Alcala accolades for taking a significantly rusted #43 and keeping the original body intact.
bernd_st
Bronze Level Sponsor
Jerry,
thanks for sharing the pictures from your precious project. That must be your new workshop isn't it ?
Regarding the engine I would go original , i.e. 1592. Parts are way harder to come by nowadays but would regard it the proper approach for that specific works car. If not us real Sunbeamers would miss those lovely early features such as the side dipstick , the big cartridge oil filter, etc. A restored pair of tuned Zeniths carbs and the thing will fly - just as in the good old days...
thanks for sharing the pictures from your precious project. That must be your new workshop isn't it ?
Regarding the engine I would go original , i.e. 1592. Parts are way harder to come by nowadays but would regard it the proper approach for that specific works car. If not us real Sunbeamers would miss those lovely early features such as the side dipstick , the big cartridge oil filter, etc. A restored pair of tuned Zeniths carbs and the thing will fly - just as in the good old days...
jdoclogan
Platinum Level Sponsor
Thanks Bernd. For all the reasons you state I probably will go that direction. I already have an NOS stage II cam, three sets of downdraft Zeniths (one set with the stage II 150s), and a lightened flywheel. When the project is completed I should go through the process of getting this FIA approved for European Vintage racing and spend a few months having fun on some of the tracks in Europe.
In case anyone wants to check out Tom Cotter's video on #41 go here https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/articles/2017/09/06/bfh-vintage-race-car the segment on #41 starts around 8:30.
In case anyone wants to check out Tom Cotter's video on #41 go here https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/articles/2017/09/06/bfh-vintage-race-car the segment on #41 starts around 8:30.
bernd_st
Bronze Level Sponsor
Jerry, that's an excellent choice. You almost have all of the required parts then. Just make sure to put utmost attention to balancing the components. Just found yesterday that the early conrods can easily have weight differences of around 5- 10 g. The Zenith's with 150's are the way to go but make sure you run them in combination with 30mm Venturis and competition air filters ( just the mushrooms but no wire mesh inside ) . Another option would be to use the 1725cc pushrods instead of the heavier early ones. The rest is pretty normal tuning so don't need to tell you...
P.S. Let us know once you plan to go to EU vintage racing...
P.S. Let us know once you plan to go to EU vintage racing...
alpine_64
Donation Time
Bernd agree with all above except the asvice on filters. Having the mesh taken out is just asking for dust etc to enter the motor and cause wear. If you feel the wire is to restrictive you can remove it and replace with a paper element or even an oiled foam filter like itg/redline etc...
alpine_64
Donation Time
Jerry,
i guess it depends what you want from the sebring car. Steve seems to have rebuilt his car as a period correct racer within the spirit of the time. This os admirable and a commedable thing.
In period the performance of the cars was not much higher than stock, the focus was on longevity for the endurance racing.
When they ran in higher classes like the 63 cars at LM and went to twin DCOE, hot cams and heavily modified heads the cars were not reliable. ( though could be today)
Today in historic racing owners fall into 3 categories of how they approach preperation:
1. Original as in period. Representative of performance and appearance with the minimum modifications to meet current safety requirements. Good fun cars and uncompetitive against most others on track.
2. Period appearance with upgrades to power and braking. Cars that still have high ride heights and soft sprining, they look as they did in period but brake materials and suspension bushes etc will be upgarded within factory parts. Often the engines are heavily developed for lots more power and if rules allow they will make period upgrades ie... Run weber carbs, points replacement ignition and will run more modern internals.. Titanium pushrods, billet cranks and rods etc...
3. The pointy end cars. Period cars using modern knowledge.. Lowered with heavy springs, lots of camber modern spec adjustable shocks inside period looking parts, revised pickup points, roll cages that are carefully located used for bracing suspension and stiffening the body as much as safety (basically adding a spaceframe inside) and heavily developed high hp motors that spin way beyond anything achievable back in the day.
Preparation will be depending on group you want to run in ( some are now being much tougher on following period spec to stop the arms race developing in historics) how close you want to be to the front and what you want to spend.
If it were me i would keep the car as period correct as possible, put the best brake pads and linings i could on, use a 1592 but assemble as carfeully as possible using a few upgarded parts: better rods and pistons, get at the head with reshaped chambers and port heavily ( roller rockers are liekly to be banned) a nice race cam thats not to peaky so you have a good pull from mid and low speed corners often on current tracks and go enjoy the heck out of it.
:-D
i guess it depends what you want from the sebring car. Steve seems to have rebuilt his car as a period correct racer within the spirit of the time. This os admirable and a commedable thing.
In period the performance of the cars was not much higher than stock, the focus was on longevity for the endurance racing.
When they ran in higher classes like the 63 cars at LM and went to twin DCOE, hot cams and heavily modified heads the cars were not reliable. ( though could be today)
Today in historic racing owners fall into 3 categories of how they approach preperation:
1. Original as in period. Representative of performance and appearance with the minimum modifications to meet current safety requirements. Good fun cars and uncompetitive against most others on track.
2. Period appearance with upgrades to power and braking. Cars that still have high ride heights and soft sprining, they look as they did in period but brake materials and suspension bushes etc will be upgarded within factory parts. Often the engines are heavily developed for lots more power and if rules allow they will make period upgrades ie... Run weber carbs, points replacement ignition and will run more modern internals.. Titanium pushrods, billet cranks and rods etc...
3. The pointy end cars. Period cars using modern knowledge.. Lowered with heavy springs, lots of camber modern spec adjustable shocks inside period looking parts, revised pickup points, roll cages that are carefully located used for bracing suspension and stiffening the body as much as safety (basically adding a spaceframe inside) and heavily developed high hp motors that spin way beyond anything achievable back in the day.
Preparation will be depending on group you want to run in ( some are now being much tougher on following period spec to stop the arms race developing in historics) how close you want to be to the front and what you want to spend.
If it were me i would keep the car as period correct as possible, put the best brake pads and linings i could on, use a 1592 but assemble as carfeully as possible using a few upgarded parts: better rods and pistons, get at the head with reshaped chambers and port heavily ( roller rockers are liekly to be banned) a nice race cam thats not to peaky so you have a good pull from mid and low speed corners often on current tracks and go enjoy the heck out of it.
:-D
jdoclogan
Platinum Level Sponsor
I have received three very worthy comments (I spoke personally with Steve Silverstein at his home in Massachusetts shorty after picking #41 up in Vermont) and more are welcomed. My own philosophy is to keep restorations of significant historical or rare Alpines original. For other Alpines personalizing is most appropriate for ease of use and comfort enhancements. However, if a rare or historically significant Alpine/Harrington is rebodied then it should be noted as such by the builder. In the latter case it is like taking an Alpine and making a V8 Alger (Alpine/Tiger). It is not even factory original and should not be claimed as such. I was able to pick up the Series II car yesterday (amazing - paint code 30 Seacrest Green like #41) with a complete 1592 engine. Rather than using the 1592 out of one of my low mileage Series IVs I will now rebuild this newly acquired 1592 for #41 as suggested.
bernd_st
Bronze Level Sponsor
Just to clarify a bit regarding the competition Zenith air filters I was talking about:
They do maximize airflow which I regard mandatory once you run the 150 mains. Otherwise the engine would run a bit too rich. In case of a normal mushroom with the wire mesh you should rather run 142s instead. Dust may not be such a big issue on US /EU racetracks.
Jerry,
finding a SII with original seacrest green colour code is a great discovery in itself. Hope the engine is good enough to provide you with a proper base.
Regarding SII Tuning there is avery nice Rootes original brochure under parts# 1206312. It describes well about the works recommended Tuning kits for stage 1 & 2 delivering up to 94 HP.
Think Rick used to sell repros. Would assume the works cars were originally set up following these instructions...
They do maximize airflow which I regard mandatory once you run the 150 mains. Otherwise the engine would run a bit too rich. In case of a normal mushroom with the wire mesh you should rather run 142s instead. Dust may not be such a big issue on US /EU racetracks.
Jerry,
finding a SII with original seacrest green colour code is a great discovery in itself. Hope the engine is good enough to provide you with a proper base.
Regarding SII Tuning there is avery nice Rootes original brochure under parts# 1206312. It describes well about the works recommended Tuning kits for stage 1 & 2 delivering up to 94 HP.
Think Rick used to sell repros. Would assume the works cars were originally set up following these instructions...
alpine_64
Donation Time
Bernd,
I understood the filters, I still think that it would be better to place something like an oiled itg foam filter inside, they wont stangle the flow ( even f1 teams run filters and they strip down the motors regularly and only race on the best circuits and the car will never see a normal road.) i think its a good safety net.
I used to run open ram tubes on the street on my dcoes and the insides of the trumpets would start to show dust/grit getting trapped on the fuel film at their mouth and it only saw sealed city roads. I went to some ramflo filters and after some readjusting lost all of 0.5hp.
If it wasnt such a significant car you'd build a cold air box (turkey pan) and duct it to the front.. But you want this to look as it raced on a car like this so some hi flow filter inserts into the mesh cleaners... Otherwise run proper trumpets.
On the special tuning manual i had an original that i scanned and used to have available for online download, the kits and prep as you show were fairly tame. There was some useful info on flywheel lightening and bracing the trottle linkage on the zeniths and also the engine stabeliser that was a bracket mounted to the head then to the firewall to limit torque movement. I followed the flywheel mods on my car years ago but took and extra 1.5kgs off with no ill effect on a street car.. Jerry could be more adventurous or make an aluminim flywheel.
The inlet and exahust porting in the special tunnign manual are ok for a road car these days.. But tame for track. Even hartwell got 104bhp out of the 1592 on zeniths in the HLM's iirc?
Im wondering if speaking to someone like chris draycot in the UK might be worthwhile he is building some impressive road and race alpine motors and lots of that is in the head ( hes gettimg 130bhp+ from 1725s)
Either way Jerry goes it will be a blast.. Hopefully he gets some good driveable, realiable HP gains... All legally of course :-D
bernd_st
Bronze Level Sponsor
Michael,
think Jerry stated he wants to keep it as close to original as possible. If that's the Maxime think he would do well with the Rootes tuning description. Of course there are more and wilder tuning options as you say. Chris is a very good address in the UK and he knows what he is doing but doubt that he has ever put much energy into tuning a 1592. You may say "tame" but believe reliability is also an important factor so think the suggested approach would be a good compromise. Of course he won't be top notch in the races but believe that's not the objective here.
Anyway just my 2 cent ...
think Jerry stated he wants to keep it as close to original as possible. If that's the Maxime think he would do well with the Rootes tuning description. Of course there are more and wilder tuning options as you say. Chris is a very good address in the UK and he knows what he is doing but doubt that he has ever put much energy into tuning a 1592. You may say "tame" but believe reliability is also an important factor so think the suggested approach would be a good compromise. Of course he won't be top notch in the races but believe that's not the objective here.
Anyway just my 2 cent ...
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alpine_64
Donation Time
Hey Bernd,
Your .02 is certainly worth a few $ . i think all of us understand the importance of the car and its history.
It should be returned to as close as practicable its factory race spec ( at least externally) id think that you could get a reliable 120hp out of it though... If you dont have to run factory rods and pistons and if you can reshape chambers... It still wont get you to the front, but will be a little more entertaining out of the corners and down the straight ;-)
