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Rear Disc Brakes for a Sunbeam Alpine! Tiger?

PROCRAFT

Donation Time
We did a rear disc conversion on the white Tiger we used to own. The disc was behind the rear hub, we drove the disc with a flange and spacers the caliper mount was a flange was bolted with spacers to the axle flange where the backing plate used to live the drive flange so to speak was .75 thick which widened the rear track like the spacers ,Jim aludes to in his post. We also used 1/2 socket head cap screws for wheel studs which we Tig'd to the hubs.
 

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
"The disc was behind the rear hub...." Now that is good news, JOEL!!!

I was able to get the rotor on the rear of the wire hub and fitted to the Alpine with adequate clearance but not the steel wheel to my satisfaction YET! It was a "trial" fit, but worked. I will need to enlarge the rotor center to mate with the hub Step (centering ring). See POST 61 above

15778-34b2c610c8eef1db0ec396e96cb2ea1d.jpg


The wheel you used on the white Tiger was, I assume, not wires, but steel or some aftermarket??
If so, there is hope for my project yet:)
 

PROCRAFT

Donation Time
"The disc was behind the rear hub...." Now that is good news, JOEL!!!

I was able to get the rotor on the rear of the wire hub and fitted to the Alpine with adequate clearance but not the steel wheel to my satisfaction YET! It was a "trial" fit, bu worked. I will need to enlarge the rotor center to mate with the hub centering ring. See POST 61 above

15778-34b2c610c8eef1db0ec396e96cb2ea1d.jpg


The wheel you used on the white Tiger was, I assume, not wires, but steel or some aftermarket??
If so, there is hope for my project yet:)
Panasports. Just for ducks why not machine the back of the hub with a register for the rotor?
 

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
Thanks for that, Joel! Now I am wondering what if any difference in the off set between the stock steel wheel and the Panasports?
 

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
Panasports. Just for ducks why not machine the back of the hub with a register for the rotor?

Figured it easier to do the rotor because the Saturn rotor will need to be truned a bit anyway..... The stock hub already has a small register that can be used.
 

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
Here is what I have as the latest on my work.

A Sunbeam Alpine or Tiger in my opinion needs an additional braking capacity for safety reasons, especially if you are on the Interstate or in heavy Town/City driving, maybe even a tandem master brake cylinder. I’ve tried to find adequate rear disc brakes to mate with the front disc, that would bolt on with little or no major modification and be affordable. Owning several Alpines, I have come to the point in time whereby they are going to be fitted with a rear disc braking system that is safe and functional in my opinion.

Individual components recommended for converting an Alpine/Tiger rear drum brake system to a more modern Disc/Caliper/Rotor system are from a 1992 Saturn SC rear wheel setup and other interchangeable year/model components available. Nothing special about these components, just what my friend started with, they worked, so that is why the decision to continue.

The designed Brackets and Spacers will fit the bolt holes in the flange on the Sunbeam rear axle housings. they are interchangeable for either right or left sides. The stock E-Brake system will function correctly if the Saturn lever is replaced with the Kit Lever I designed to fit with the Sunbeam components.


CARDONE 18B4524 and 18B4525 Remanufactured Unloaded Calipers w/Brackets Left and Right Rears with metal pistons. Estimated cost $60 each

CENTRIC 50007140 PQ PRO; w/Shims and Hardware. Premium Pads, Rear Disc Brakes. Estimate Cost $24 - $26. A set is for both sides.

CENTRIC 12062037 Rotor rear disc brakes. Estimate cost $20 each.

KIT COMPONENTS: The Brackets, Spacers and E-Brake Levers are $120 per set for both rear wheels consisting of the following items:

Brackets, Axle Housing to Caliper OEM Bracket, Quantity 2 each

Spacers, Axle to Housing ¼” Quantity 2 each

Spacers, Axle to housing 1/8" Qty of 2 each (Note: Edit made to add this former omission May 9, 2020).

Spacers, Axle to Housing 1/16” Quantity 2 each

Lever, E-Brake replacements for Saturn stock lever, Quantity 1 RH & 1 LH.

Bolts, ¼ - 20 1 ¼” (length may vary due to spacers required) w/nuts and washers, Quantity 6 each

Bolts, 10 mm 1.5 25 12.9 Axle Housing Bracket to Caliper OEM Bracket Quantity 4 each

NOTE: If you want rotors modified as part of your kit, there is an additional cost of $100 to cover: rotors, labor,and shipping (lower 48). If you decide to DIY, make sure you also get the Saturn OEM mount bracket because it is need for mounting to my Axle Housing Bracket.

At this time my caliper mount brackets are available only for the specific wheels I have test fitted on my Alpine & Tiger rear carriers as follows:
1. Stock wire 13 inch. 2. Center Line 14x6 inch, and 3. PanaSport 14 & 15 x7” wheels. 4. Mutt II &Pinto 13" wheels. 5. Compomotor 13" (Stephens wheels).

A spacer can be utilized between the hub and wheel in some cases such as the Mags I run on Blue Boy (15x7). Longer studs may be required in some cases, depending on the thickness of the spacer(s). I have not yet completed the Stock Steel wheel 13”application. I want to ensure total safety and performance before offering.

Additional info to follow. Stay tuned.

Here is my draft PDF on the Rear Disc Brakes for the Sunbeam Alpine/Tiger:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ufxDssxyhCOTSqlMQfcO_g7N2BYXFFTfHedjX31frYo/edit
 
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DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
SUNBEAM REAR BRAKE and CYLINDER CHOICES

There has been much discussion about the Sunbeam needing a better braking system. I for one believe the stock front disc system is adequate even though the replacement parts are becoming more difficult to obtain.

The rears being drum type have often made me wish Rootes would have gone with the disc also. In attempting to improve the rear brakes for my Alpines, I began searching for a suitable system. I discovered a friend had used the 1992 Saturn SC disc caliper on the rear of his Alpine. Later, when he changed out the rear axle carrier for a FORD he also changed the front calipers and rotors to 11 inch. I was fortunate to get his discarded Saturn Calipers because they were now a mis-match/non-compatible with the new fronts.

My Draftsman/Engineer friend was instrumental in design and laser cutting a set of Brackets, Spacers and an E-Brake levers that mates to the Alpine & Tiger. Of course, there were plenty of trial and errors too! Below is some information dealing with the brakes, master cylinders, wheel type and sizes. Hope you can glean the tidbits you need to make the right choices.

The critical factor regarding the master cylinder size is the required brake pedal effort being compatible to brake cylinders, changing from drum to disk brakes should not make much, if any, difference. Rear disk brakes will be more reliable, less fussy to adjust, easier to maintain, easier to get parts, etc., and will stop the car equality or better than properly operating drum brakes. If the cylinder diameter is the same, there is no difference in hydraulic pressure produced by a single output master cylinder or tandem master cylinder. As far as which style of master to use, I'd use the dual (tandem) type for safety. If you will not be using the power boost, I'd start with 11/16" combo with the Saturn caliper which should give the braking feel similar to that of Series I & II cars. If you go with 3/4" it should work just fine but be a bit more on the hard side, performing almost identically to the 11/16" but provide more reserve fluid.

Rootes figured out suitable master cylinder sizes a long time ago. Series Alpines with a brake booster had 0.875" (7/8") master cylinders. Series Alpines without a brake booster had 0.700" (Series I / II) or 0.750" (Series 3 / IV / V) master cylinders. An Alpine with a 3/4" master cylinder, no brake booster and a stock brake pedal is OK, but it may require a fair amount of leg strength to make a hard stop. An 11/16" tandem master cylinder should be a good combination for the Saturn caliper. In theory, the Saturn rear disk setup may provide a little too much rear brake bias, so depending on your installation a proportioning valve may be needed.

Currently, as of this writing, I am satisfied with my Stock Wire 13” arrangement for my SIV Alpine. I must say the Stock Steel 13” wheels are unavailable at present. They are proving too much difficulty for a proper fit. Components will be available for some 14” and 15” wheels for the Sunbeam Alpine & Tiger. I have found the PanaSport 14 & 15 x6 & 7 inch wheels fit nicely. My Ron’s Mags on Blue Boy which are 15x7’s need ¼” spacers between the wheel and hub for clearance between the wheel and caliper.

I also have fitted a Center Line 14x6 wheel without any clearance problems. I have fitted a Pinto 13x5.5 wheel that has the FORD logo and part number E D6ZA 1007-BB-X utilizing a ¼ to ½ inch spacer between the wheel and hub.

Utilizing a Tiger rear carrier for a mock-up I have some good results to report.

My goal is for Sunbeam owners to have an optional rear disc caliper for their Alpine and Tiger vehicles whether fitted with stock 13” wire OR stock steel wheels OR 14” and 15” wheels.

Open to suggestions......
 

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
Jim, I was able to confirm that both Alpine and Tiger fitted with 14" and 15" PanaSport Wheels works with the Saturn Caliper.

I had to go back to the drawing board to design a "bracket" to replace the stock bracket on the rear of the Alpine/Tiger Carrier. (Where the emergency brake "rod" slides back and forth). This was required to keep the rod and cable "level" similar to the stock design.
 

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Dan Moore

Donation Time
Dan
Have you ever considered using the spare from a Turbo coup as the spare will clear the discs but it is a 16" rim
Dan
 

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
Have not considered your suggestion. Actually did not consider anything other than a "matching" wheel for the spare. All my wheels are 15"

I have modified several of my Alpine wheel wells to take a wider wheel than the stock 5".

The PIC of the spare wheel well makes it seem much larger than its' actually size. Probably should have "clipped" the image before posting.

Here is a modified picture that may better show what I was intending to display:)
 

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alpine_64

Donation Time
Hi Dan,

apologies for dragging off topic on the thread.

Great work on R&D for the kit. Its very impressive how you are making sure it works for a wide variety of wheels and sizes and both wires and stud hubs.
 

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
Great work on R&D for the kit. Its very impressive how you are making sure it works for a wide variety of wheels and sizes and both wires and stud hubs.

Michael, As an additional effort to determine correct "fitting" of wheels in regards to the Sunbeam rear brakes I took one of my Alpine axle assemblies with the Saturn Calipers and rotors to my friend, Eric Gibeaut's (65Sunbeam).

Eric, as always, put up with me imposing upon his generosity and helped test fitted several different wheels just a few days ago. Stephen Smith another Sunbeam activist also brought one of his spare wheels for fitting.

The idea came to me to haul the rear axle assembly down to the British Car Event in Columbia, SC on April 3rd and 4th for further test fitting various wheels for any one interested.....http://forum.sunbeamalpine.org/inde...nvasion-sos-columbia-sc-april-3-4-2020.28053/
 

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
An update as of this afternoon on the rear disc for an Alpine makes me very happy!

I have been spending a lot of time testing and fitting and testing some more just to make sure I will have brakes.

Several days were spent changing out the master cylinder (brake) to a tandem style and rerouting the brake lines. Then bleeding and cleaning up before a test run.

The run was successful in that I had brakes..... but not to my satisfaction. Back to the master cylinder again to make sure the travel was correct. It (the brake rod) needs 2" of travel, had to make one. Back on the road for another test. Now, I am really happy. The brakes worked better than ever before. I can stop my Blue Boy V6 easily. Guess next will be some type of attained speed and then braking for distance and time??

Here is what I now have installed on Blue Boy:

Master Brake Cylinder 11/16 bore ( Dodge Colt) with lines:
1. From the "F" (front) to the stock fitting on the inner fender well and down to each front caliper.
2. From the "R" (rear) to the rear into an Eaton # 326 "tee" that routes to each caliper (Saturn).
Stock front caliper (16P) and rotor.
Saturn Caliper and Rotor.
Modified E-Brake cable (shortened 2").

As stated previously I now have brackets and spacers for installing the Saturn Calipers and Rotors to the rear of most Alpines and Tigers. Let the Buyer Beware, I will stand behind the design and production of my components.

Contact if interested in what I have to offer. Details and pictures are available.
 
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Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
I'm finding the lack of response to be somewhat defening. Dan has spent undo hours on this project and has, by any measure, done an outstanding job. The project is of very reasonable cost, high quality, with no loose ends and addresses an often mentioned subject. I find it incredible that it and Dan have been totally ignored.

Have I misjudged that much? What am I missing?

Bill
 
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