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Power Steering Failure
- Thread starter sd_pace
- Start date
Shannon Boal
Platinum Level Sponsor
I think you are right. It is all fun at the keyboard....but sobering to think the steering boxes can up and fail.
Scotty
Silver Level Sponsor
I’ve never seen the need for power steering and no offense to anyone but after a lot of what I’ve heard about that on the Alpine over the years, I really want nothing to do with it.
I had mine checked in 04 when I got this car when they swapped in my rebuilt and outside of adding more of the grease or whatnot it uses, it was fine. 58 years and counting reliable is good enough for me, my muscles need a little workout anyway lol.
I had mine checked in 04 when I got this car when they swapped in my rebuilt and outside of adding more of the grease or whatnot it uses, it was fine. 58 years and counting reliable is good enough for me, my muscles need a little workout anyway lol.
You might reconsider if you are on a truly challenging road and find yourself needing to downshift as you enter a curve and find the road not only gets steeper, and you need to stir up a steeper gear than you were going for, while the curve tightens dramatically. And just to make things interesting, you meet a semitruck load of logs, going at a hell for leather pace, headed downhill, Ever try to turn the wheel to near lock with your off-hand? That is the exact moment that I first contemplated power steering.
It is starting to look like Steve's experience is an uncommon example and that my idea could be a viable solution to steering box blowout. Having said that, I must admit that I am not a big fan of the EPS. My example had very little wheel return, which I could not adjust to. But I do understand why there is a demand for the concept.
Bill
Scotty
Silver Level Sponsor
I don't have an off hand. I'm ambidextrous.
I do however have a bad hand after my work accident, so I get to a degree what you're saying.
I've driven around the Oakland Hills in what I'd consider similar environment like what you're talking about (regarding how steep, not any semis hauling tree trunks or the like) and I haven't had a lot of difficulty doing that. I drive the Alpine like one might ride a motorcycle: I drive like everyone is out to kill me.
Saying that, the Alpine doesn't have the kind of horsepower where I would readily put it in positions like the ones you're mentioning. It has, however, saved my life on a few occasions just from being very nimble and quick when I need it to be. That is far more safer than ending up in a place you didn't know about and now... what?
Control what you can control.
In your situation, my decision would be to not drive there to begin with. In your example, I wouldn't want power steering, I'd want more horsepower. If I had to go into the situation you're talking about, I'd either drive a different car or take a different route. I make it a point to plan my trips to places I don't know, before I go.
My real fear, if I had installed power steering and ran into the situation in your example, is having it destroy my steering box when I required that amount of power and lose control of my car. Then I'm really screwed.
So again, no offense to anyone, but you can keep it. My stock setup works quite nicely and I'm doing just fine
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Last edited:
husky drvr
Platinum Level Sponsor
Scotty,
Just a thought, do you think someone your fathers age, or older, would be capable of getting the same enjoyment of driving as you?
Don't misunderstand, I'm not a fan of modifying the OE steering with the EPS. To me, that modification just seems a bit too much like dropping a HIPO 302 into an Alpine and then wondering why the OE rear end broke. That being said, there is a place for the use of assisted steering.
The EPS mod is the "quick and dirty" answer - and usually works. Now that we've found the next weak link, we - the club - needs someone willing to try and determine a way past this issue.
Have a good day,
Bill Eisinger
Platinum Level Sponsor
I’m putting EPS in my SI V6 conversion….based on what anecdotal information we have (primarily from England) it does seem like a possibility that the torque from the EPS at full output might be more than the what the steering box can handle…particularly if the car is not moving. Information from England seems to indicate that the steering box might be good for somewhere in the 15-20 ft-lb range of torque although that isn’t clearly documented…the EPS is capable of around 60 ft-lb at full output…the EPS has an adjustable output…my solution will be to set the output at around 25% of max output and back that up with a DC breaker sized to limit the current draw to 25% of max (the current draw on the EPS is proportional to the torque output)…I’m not going to have any trouble sleeping implementing that solution and with the limited steering torque output I‘m thinking the car will still have that “sports car feel” but the extra little boost will enhance drivability in parking lots, etc at slower speeds.
Don, not to be picking on you, but could you define "this issue"? Is the issue the busted steering boxes? Is it the Alpines high steering effort at low speeds? The steering in my current build could is aimed at the steering effort. It has the MG steering box and steering arms that are usually installed in Tigers. I was totally blown away when I drove Paul As' Tiger. The stationary steering effort was amazing low. I'm thinking this steering gear, when installed in a car with a much lighter engine, could well be the solution. The car is nearing the "road worthy" state, so this summer should give us the answer to that question. I suppose that if one finds the "Tigerized" steering effort to be too high, they could install the EPS, knowing the steering gear was rugged enough to withstand the power steering.
Bill
Scotty
Silver Level Sponsor
Sorry, I don’t understand this conflicting points post.
husky drvr
Platinum Level Sponsor
Just looking at both sides of an issue.
Hope this is more helpful,
In the terms of this forum and discussion, what are your thoughts on what I was trying to communicate as being an issue?
I'd like to compare what you thought I meant compared to what idea I meant to express.
Yes, your steering in the new Durapine might be an improvement of sorts for my undefined issue. I'd like to think there might be a simpler method of combining compatible parts that will operate together safely and long term, maintaining the Alpine's driving qualities. I'm not sure what form that setup might take, but a different method of operation is not out of the question. Still seeking.
The easiest steering in a Rootes vehicle I ever experienced was the Husky after the changeover to Alpine steering gear and front brakes - all stock parts. It's not actually apples to apples for comparison, though - different caster, camber, and the use of bias belted tires. You could literally turn the steering lock to lock sitting still with one finger. The problem, yes problem, was the wheels were 13X6 with zero, or maybe negative offset. Yes, they were well outside the fenders. When you turned the steering, you would see the wheels actually ROLL as the steering operated - so effectively little friction.
BTW, I have experienced a steering failure with the Husky moving. TOO much excitement. That's why the Alpine steering was installed.
Have fun,
Don, if the "the issue" is failed steel balls, it can be solved for about twenty bucks. All this is required is an order to McMaster Carr for hardened balls, made of a tool steel material. If it is exploding steering boxes, it is remedied by the truss I designed. If it is difficult steering, it seems you have a taken a journey down the path of solving that issue. The problem there would be sourcing parts to do the job. But to be honest, as I read your response, my first thoughts were about "safteyizing" the Alpine steering box. To me, that is a solved issue. We are capable of building a steering box which will eventually fail, but not in a known catastrophic fashion. Probably from a worn worm or destroyed thrust balls.
www.mcmaster.com
Bill
McMaster-Carr
McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.
Bill
Shannon Boal
Platinum Level Sponsor
I would love to see your truss design!Don, if the "the issue" is failed steel balls, it can be solved for about twenty bucks. All this is required is an order to McMaster Carr for hardened balls, made of a tool steel material. If it is exploding steering boxes, it is remedied by the truss I designed. If it is difficult steering, it seems you have a taken a journey down the path of solving that issue. The problem there would be sourcing parts to do the job. But to be honest, as I read your response, my first thoughts were about "safteyizing" the Alpine steering box. To me, that is a solved issue. We are capable of building a steering box which will eventually fail, but not in a known catastrophic fashion. Probably from a worn worm or destroyed thrust balls.
McMaster-Carr
McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.
Bill
Talk to DanR. I made it with the intention to give it to him. Consequently, I have no pictures. What I made was not a working truss. Was made mostly out of Masonite with a big cutout to allow it to slip over a steering box without removing anything. Just a mockup to demonstrate the idea. Dan likes the idea, sees ways to improve it (fine with me!) but is having trouble getting his fabricator on the job.
Bill
Bill
Scotty
Silver Level Sponsor
There is no both sides of the issue, the EPS is flawed and has the ability to not just take out a steering box, but remove steering altogether, endangering your life.
Just looking at both sides of an issue.
Hope this is more helpful,
In the terms of this forum and discussion, what are your thoughts on what I was trying to communicate as being an issue?
I'd like to compare what you thought I meant compared to what idea I meant to express.
Yes, your steering in the new Durapine might be an improvement of sorts for my undefined issue. I'd like to think there might be a simpler method of combining compatible parts that will operate together safely and long term, maintaining the Alpine's driving qualities. I'm not sure what form that setup might take, but a different method of operation is not out of the question. Still seeking.
The easiest steering in a Rootes vehicle I ever experienced was the Husky after the changeover to Alpine steering gear and front brakes - all stock parts. It's not actually apples to apples for comparison, though - different caster, camber, and the use of bias belted tires. You could literally turn the steering lock to lock sitting still with one finger. The problem, yes problem, was the wheels were 13X6 with zero, or maybe negative offset. Yes, they were well outside the fenders. When you turned the steering, you would see the wheels actually ROLL as the steering operated - so effectively little friction.
BTW, I have experienced a steering failure with the Husky moving. TOO much excitement. That's why the Alpine steering was installed.
Have fun,
I will not install something in my car that's going to do that. There has been significant discussion, even with the Brits, that this is a bad idea and much more development needs to be done before it's even considered. Just because someone has it installed and it works fine now doesn't mean it won't tear apart a box down the road and that's the danger.
You're saying it's a great idea but it doesn't work, so... it doesn't work. That's the point. You can't sell me on a broken idea. There are enough of those in society as it is.
As for ages, I'm in my 50's and I have no problem. My dad fyi is almost 80 and drives a truck without power steering and doing just fine. I feel like I should be insulted by your question but I see it's an issue of safety, an issue you can't have if the product you're off-handedly promoting is doing the kind of damage that it's been doing and not have answers for it.
To further that, Al Mason drives his Alpines tens of thousands of miles all over the US, over all manners of terrain and situations. His are bone stock and he's pushing 70 years old. And he's still doing it.
I have no intention of testing or developing this and I wish those who do great success because it pushes forward our collective parts bins and makes it easier and better to bring our cars into the future. When that day comes, I may very well do what I just did with the steering hub. Difference is, a hub isn't going to cost me my life, so I need to see concrete proof before I consider it.
For those who get this there, you have my undying gratitude even if I don't ever decide to use it. Someone down the road who will really need it, will at least be able to obtain it thanks to your efforts.
So Scotty, who has been badgering you to test EPS? I ask, for I can't understand what else could get you into this mindset. As to the efforts of the Brits, I applaud their them, I wish they would stop for a moment and describe all of the steering boxes weaknesses. At this time, all we can do is address the weakness as they appear.
EPS DOES work. They have been used by the millions in new cars, Not to my satisfaction in my Alpine, but obviously does to the satisfaction of others in their Alpines. It is not perfect and stresses the steering box to catistrophic failure. We are working on that problem and have workable solutions.
Bill
EPS DOES work. They have been used by the millions in new cars, Not to my satisfaction in my Alpine, but obviously does to the satisfaction of others in their Alpines. It is not perfect and stresses the steering box to catistrophic failure. We are working on that problem and have workable solutions.
Bill
Shannon Boal
Platinum Level Sponsor
Yes, Electric steering is new. Our 2016 Mazda 3 has it, and it was too sensitive for my liking at first. My friend Dennis ran a towing service for years, 80 hours a week with a five ton International......MANUAL STEERING....he coulda been arm-wrestling champion of the state, but his shoulder sockets wore out!