Oil Leak

[mxp01]

I have developed a pretty server oil leak somewhere on the front side of the engine over the last year. This leak however does not show it self unless I'm driving under the right conditions. I have had the car off the ground idling and running the engine on some elevated RPMs and cannot get this leak to show itself. It seems to do most of its leaking at speeds of 45mph or higher heading down hill. I know this because the exhaust will burn off the oil leaving a trail of white smoke while cruising down hill and leaving oil all over the underside, rear bumper, the tappet side of the block, and who ever is unlucky enough to be behind me. After a 40 mile trip I will lose a quart of oil but sometimes I'll get back after a ride and not a drop of oil will be lost. This leak has me scratching my head.

About two years ago a pull the whole engine down to it's short block replacing all the seals. I'll list what I believe to be current status of all my engine gaskets.
-Head gasket (good)
-rocker cover (good)
-spin on oil filter assembly (good)
-tappet cover (surprisingly oil tight)
-sump (not so sure, those cork gaskets are tough to set on the main bearings)
-timing case gasket (I felt good when I put this on, I think its holding up)
-crank pully ( using a BHJ pully with reverse cut on a stock timing cover. I probably have a small leak here).
-water pump and t-stat housing (all good)

Currently I have the engine out sitting on a stand and ready to do this all again. But this time if there are parts to upgrade I'm willing to do it. I am aware of a few upgrades that Alpine Innovations offers and I plan doing them.
-AI sump pan kit
-AI timing case oil seal upgrade
-AI rocker and tappet cover gaskets

I'm not wanting park my alpine over a white rug, I just don't want to clean oil off the backside of my car all the time.

I'm interested in any other suggestions that anyone else would have.

Thanks,

 

[RootesRooter]

Wow, that's a lot of oil to lose, periodically, in just 40 miles. Calls for some spitballin':

Just to be sure, you mentioned seeing leakage on the "tappet side" of the block and also on the "front side" of the engine. Is the oil all over the pan?

Did the leak start right away after the rebuild?

I'm not familiar with a "BHJ" pulley. I assume that means its new?

Is a 'reverse cut' standard on the pulley? You're not somehow pushing oil out the front?

Any chance you grabbed the wrong dipstick during the rebuild and grossly overfilled the crankcase?

Are your PCV and breather hoses in a stock configuration?

Too bad the engine's out of the car. Adding some dye might have tracked it down.

 

[hartmandm]

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Is the "BHJ with reverse cut" the part for the original Alpine seal?

Mike

 

[bernd_st]

Can not judge on the BHL pulley and it's ability to reverse transport the timing case oil. However the STD Rootes solution wasn't good either. So close inspection is needed here. Since the amount of oil loss is so high and only occuring under load I'ld suspect that there is a principal mistake.
Several hints of what you could check on top:

• Is the splash washer behind the timing cover intact & properly oriented in place ?
• Is the timing chain oil spray valve properly installed and working? Talking about the small s-shaped tube with the steel ball spring loaded valve
• Is your crankcase ventilation system free and properly working ? Any piston ring blow by can worsen the effect

The AI seals seem to be good, even I haven't tried them myself yet. Anyway hope this helps...

 

[Acollin]

Could oil be pooling someplace to account for the erratic nature of the leak? The initial post says that the leak can occur on drives and drives can be leak free. — A long shot I know but, now that the motor is out of the car, would tipping the motor in place reveal anything? I say this only because I was able to confirm my gearbox leak, once out of the car, by propping up the tail shaft and coming back the next day to find a pool of oil beneath the front seal. If so, find the pooling — the path to a leak?
Hope this helps

 

[mxp01]

Wow, that's a lot of oil to lose, periodically, in just 40 miles. Calls for some spitballin':

Just to be sure, you mentioned seeing leakage on the "tappet side" of the block and also on the "front side" of the engine. Is the oil all over the pan?

-Yes oil is all over the sump pan.

Did the leak start right away after the rebuild?

-No the leak started a few months after. Pistons, rods, crank all stayed assembled in the short block.

I'm not familiar with a "BHJ" pulley. I assume that means its new?

-Bought it in 2014 new.

Is a 'reverse cut' standard on the pulley? You're not somehow pushing oil out the front?

-The cut is the same as the factory pully. Haven't had major oil leak with the previous years of running this pully.

Any chance you grabbed the wrong dipstick during the rebuild and grossly overfilled the crankcase?

-Same dipstick I have had since owning the car (15years)

Are your PCV and breather hoses in a stock configuration?

-I run a catch can with a breather. Not a stock configuration, but provides ventilation.

Too bad the engine's out of the car. Adding some dye might have tracked it down.

-That came to mind as soon as I unhooked the chains, shucks.

 

[mxp01]

Can not judge on the BHL pulley and it's ability to reverse transport the timing case oil. However the STD Rootes solution wasn't good either. So close inspection is needed here. Since the amount of oil loss is so high and only occuring under load I'ld suspect that there is a principal mistake.
Several hints of what you could check on top:

• Is the splash washer behind the timing cover intact & properly oriented in place ?

-I am planning on pulling the timing cover this weekend to inspect.

• Is the timing chain oil spray valve properly installed and working? Talking about the small s-shaped tube with the steel ball spring loaded valve

-I did not touch this the last time I was inside the timing case but I will reinspect.

• Is your crankcase ventilation system free and properly working ? Any piston ring blow by can worsen the effect

-I'm running a catch can with a breather.

The AI seals seem to be good, even I haven't tried them myself yet. Anyway hope this helps...

 

[mxp01]

Could oil be pooling someplace to account for the erratic nature of the leak? The initial post says that the leak can occur on drives and drives can be leak free. — A long shot I know but, now that the motor is out of the car, would tipping the motor in place reveal anything? I say this only because I was able to confirm my gearbox leak, once out of the car, by propping up the tail shaft and coming back the next day to find a pool of oil beneath the front seal. If so, find the pooling — the path to a leak?
Hope this helps

I was going to give this idea a shot. Planning on putting the engine back on the hoist and pitching it forward to see if it shows it self. I know if I go to far oil will come out no matter what.

 

[mxp01]

I would like to add, that when I resealed everything two years back I discovered that there was no timing tensioner installed. I could tell that it had not been destroyed but that it simply was never installed by the last person (Previous Owner I assume) inside that case and some how never jumped timing in the 15 years I owned it. I did install a new tensioner to be on the safe side.

This leak does not appear to be under pressure. I say this because I do not have oil all over the underside of the bonnet or all over the engine bay. Oil is just on the engine.

 

[RootesRooter]

Could you describe the "catch can with a breather" system?

 

[todd reid]

This is a long shot, but take a close look at the distributor drive. I know my V6 has a leak there.
Good luck!

 

[mxp01]

Could you describe the "catch can with a breather" system?

I'll do my best to explain what's going on in the attached image.

Hose leaving the oil filler neck enters catch can. Catch can has breather filter to vent off any positive crank case pressure. Hose exits catch can and return to intake manifold.

I added the catch can to try to clean up the air returning to the intake. All my valves where covered with carbon, some thing I thought only happened to in direct fuel injection engines. The catch can does catch some blow by liquids, but if its going to help keep my valves clean, i'll know when shine a flash light into the intake ports on the head.

 

[bernd_st]

I wonder whether that "catch can" thing is doing any good. How is the condition of the tappet cover vent tube ? Breathing into fresh air as the manufacturer intended ? Anyhow that pictured valve looks no good with lots of wet oil coal residue. It appears you need a proper engine rebuild. Just new seals may help but not be the ultimate cure...

 

[Acollin]

was there a leak before the “catch can” Installation?

 

[husky drvr]

Hose leaving the oil filler neck enters catch can. Catch can has breather filter to vent off any positive crank case pressure. Hose exits catch can and return to intake manifold.

Cade,

Is the hose from catch can to intake manifold connected to a functional PCV valve or maybe just straight manifold vacuum?

Is there something in the catch can that closes the air filter passage if vacuum is applied from the manifold?

If not, you're probably just pulling air from that filter to the PCV which would effectively end any forced ventilation of the engine.

If there is no cut-off for that air filter, you might try removing the air filter and sealing that port to see if that helps lower your oil loss.

To what is the port on the tappet cover connected, an air filter?

Originally, the ventilation port on the tappet cover would go to the PCV. The port on the oil fill would go through a flame trap to the air filter to supply filtered air to the engine for make up for the vapors going to the PCV.

Until I read your description on how your engine ventilation is set up, I was thinking maybe the fastener that supports the center of the timing cover might be missing allowing an open hole to be your leak source.

Maybe this can help pinpoint your issue(s),

 

[RootesRooter]

I think maybe your first guess about ill-fitting cork gaskets at the ends of the sump pan is the most likely culprit. If you accidentally deformed the front gasket when installing, I could imagine oil almost pouring out going downhill.

 

[mxp01]

Cade,

Is the hose from catch can to intake manifold connected to a functional PCV valve or maybe just straight manifold vacuum?

There is a PCV valve on the manifold where the catch can hose is connected

Is there something in the catch can that closes the air filter passage if vacuum is applied from the manifold?

I believe not

If not, you're probably just pulling air from that filter to the PCV which would effectively end any forced ventilation of the engine.

If there is no cut-off for that air filter, you might try removing the air filter and sealing that port to see if that helps lower your oil loss.

I removed the filter on the catch and installed the plug, but that did not make a difference.

To what is the port on the tappet cover connected, an air filter?

1/2 hose with a small filter attached

Originally, the ventilation port on the tappet cover would go to the PCV. The port on the oil fill would go through a flame trap to the air filter to supply filtered air to the engine for make up for the vapors going to the PCV.

Until I read your description on how your engine ventilation is set up, I was thinking maybe the fastener that supports the center of the timing cover might be missing allowing an open hole to be your leak source.

the center fastener on the timing cover is in place and appears dry.

Maybe this can help pinpoint your issue(s),

This leak started well after the catch can, but I have no problem ditching the thing and going pack to how it was plumbed in the 60s. I was never really sure how the ventilation should of been plumbed, all that was missing when I got the car 15 years ago. So thanks for educating me on that.

My plan this weekend is to pull the timing cover and the sump to get a better look at things.

 

[Eleven]

Ditching the catch can might be a thought. Venting into an overflow can makes sense but then pulling from that to the intake might not work. You could be pulling oil into the intake from it. Not an expert but does the PVC even work if the hose goes to a source that is also vented and then the intake? There would be little vacuum pressure from the can back to the valve cover but enough on the intake side to pull oil out of the can.

 

[Tim R]

Cade,

We vent both the rocker cover filler and the tappet cover direct to atmosphere. There is never any smoke, fluid or even visible gas that comes from these pipes, you can just feel the 'throb' as the pressure changes as the engine runs. Just as a test I would remove your catch can set up, take the filter off of the tappet chest breather and see if the problem continues.

Obvious question..... but it has been done before......... You are filling the oil level to the correct height and are not overfilling and you haven't got a different length dip stick in the engine?

I love the comment about "parking on a white rug", that is exactly what we do so that if the car ever drops any oil we can see where the problem is!

Tim R

 

[Shannon Boal]

FWIW, there is a place on the tappet chest cover which is prone to leak. Makes a big leak but gets spread by the fan and road blast. Location is 1/4 of the way back from the front on the bottom. The cover gets warped there and it is next to a part of the tappet chest that funnels lotsa hot oil onto the leak. While you have it apart I suggest you check the cover for straightness. I laid mine on a thick steel table and hammered it straight. On the plus side, you are rust-proofing your car.....