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Not Charging

M

Mike Armstrong

Bronze Level Sponsor
A while back I started my car and noticed the Amp gauge pegged to +30. A voltmeter reading at the battery terminals read 17.6 volts and I could smell the battery beginning to cook off. After looking around for loose wires etc., I started it up but now there is no charging whatsoever (amp gauge is 0) and the red light next to the ignition key is on.

Figured it was purhaps the voltage regulator, replaced it, still no charging, red light is on.

Took the alternator in to NAPA to get it tested but it just so happens they’re test machine needed calibration which wouldn’t be happening for a few days. Then with Black Friday around the corner the clerk asked how old the alternator was (It came with the motor years ago so I have no idea) and if I wanted to replace it with a brand new one he would do it for just $50, sounded good to me.

Installed the new alternator (same 3 wire as the last one), started it up, amp gauge at zero, still no charging at battery and the red light is still on. Can’t find any loose/burnt wires, fuses are good, ?

Any ideas?
 
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260Alpine

260Alpine

Silver Level Sponsor
Mike, check the main hot wire from alternator to battery and connections. May go to junction block or Ford type solenoid first depending on how it is wired.
 
260Alpine

260Alpine

Silver Level Sponsor
Could also be the Ammeter is an open circuit. Get rid of it and run continuous cable. You could jump around the gauge to test. Then hook up a voltmeter to replace the ammeter in the dash. The diagram doesn't show the voltage sensing wire but the charging light works so it is probably OK.
 
M

Mike Armstrong

Bronze Level Sponsor
260Alpine said:
Could also be the Ammeter is an open circuit. Get rid of it and run continuous cable. You could jump around the gauge to test. Then hook up a voltmeter. the diagram doesn't show the voltage sensing wire but the charging light works so it is probably OK.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, could be the ammeter I suppose. How should I bypass the gauge? Use a heavy gauge jumper between the two connections on the back of the gauge?
 
M

Mike Armstrong

Bronze Level Sponsor
Jumped the amp gauge, the red light stays on. Also of note concerning the amp gauge, though while the engine is running it reads zero’ it does go into negative when the lights are turned on.
 
T

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Mike, Got your PM. The ammeter read neg when lights are on , tells me (and you) the ammeter is working and correctly wired.

I don't understand about you "replaced the voltage regulator". I assume this is a Ford 3 wire alt with built in regulator, right? So your replaced the regulator inside the alt ?? And THEN you took it to NAPA? We don't know what alternator or regulator came with your engine, since we don't know what year the engine is. How about providing the NAPA part number so I can look up how it is supposed to be wired.

Seems most likely that the main heavy wire from alt to the system opened up , maybe has a fusible link opened up. Is your alt wiring mostly the original Alpine wiring, or mostly the original Ford wiring? Or some combination?

Next likely culprit would be the third (sensing) wire, but as Jim pointed out the fact that the Ignition light lights, it seems to be OK.

With the car running (but without showing any charging, of course), measure the voltage at the B+ terminal ( the big post ) on the Alt. What is the voltage there .

Tom
 
M

Mike Armstrong

Bronze Level Sponsor
Hi Tom, thanks for chiming in, you’ve helped me allot with electrical problems in the past so I wanted to get your opinion.

My alternator has been 3 wire externally regulated model from a 1985 Bronco II, it came attached to the 2.8 so I don’t know how old it was. It has functioned normally over the past couple of years. I’ve fixed charging problems in the past by replacing the Voltage Regulator so that’s the first thing I did. After no change that’s when I brought the alternator in and ended up replacing it with the same Bronco II model. All the wiring to both the alternator and regulator has remained the same. I’m using a combination of original and new wiring.

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/RSE2133014

https://photos.app.goo.gl/iNMTC5qmdwEyXz2X9

That heavy wire you mentioned, I assume the thick wire connected to the BAT (B+) terminal on the alternator, is original to the car, so that could have had a failure somewhere.

I assume, to test the output? of the alternator using a voltmeter and the car running, that I would contact the alternator BAT terminal with the red positive lead on the voltmeter and ground somewhere with the black negative lead, ?

Thanks
 
M

Mike Armstrong

Bronze Level Sponsor
At 1000rpm, voltage from the new alternator BAT terminal to ground is 12.3 volts. Back at the battery cables it is 12.4 volts.

Just for a quick check I reinstalled the old voltage regulator, the symptoms repeated themselves with the amp gauge pegged at +30 and 17 volts at the battery, also, though I shut it down pretty quickly, the alternator felt warm, like it was going to get fried if the engine continued to run.

Put the new voltage regulator back in and it’s back to zero charge indicated on the amp gauge, red light still on and the alternator stays cool.
 
T

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Loose wire somewhere? Note the sequence of your tests.
1) start car and note excessive charge
2) check for loose wires, find nothing, restart car, but now get zero output
3) Replace regulator - still zero output
4) replace Alt with new one - still zero output
5) Re-install old regulator - now excessive charge again - same result as step 1, not same as step 2 - what is different than step 2 ?
6) Re-install new regulator , back to zero output

Puzzling.
Both old and new alt will sometimes put out excess charge, and sometimes no charge.
Old regulator sometimes puts out excess and sometimes zero charge. New regulator not seen to put out excess charge - seems likely just coincidence
Seems likely that both old and new Alt and regulator are all OK, but something loose somewhere.

In photos I see two brown wires at the STA terminal on Alt. One goes to the regulator I think. Where does the other brown wire go? Having a hard time figuring out the correct wiring . This dwg appears to match your wiring from what I can see in photos:
https://www.google.com/search?q=for...h=752#imgrc=b7op5-rDc3Le7M:&spf=1543280317047

But it does not show a second wire to the STA terminal.

Tom
 
M

Mike Armstrong

Bronze Level Sponsor
Thank you Tom.

You bring up some good observations. With 80% of my wiring being original, that leaves allot room for failures somewhere be it shorts or whatnot.
Its been a couple years so I honestly don’t remember how I came up with that particular wiring, but, it did seem to work fine for a long time.

Is that 12.3 volt output from the alternator normal? I thought it was supposed to be 14.7, or something. Also, can a voltage regulator malfunction, causing the amp gauge to show +30, allow 17.6 volts to cook the battery and maybe fry the alternator while it’s at it? When I reinstalled the old voltage regulator and saw the +30 amps I shut down the engine pretty quick so the new alternator only got warm to the touch, whereas the old alternator was was spinning for awhile while the engine was at fast idle warming up.
 
T

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
I shoulda explained. The 12.3 v you measured at the Alt B+ was the battery voltage. The alt was not generating anything. But that also tells us that the B+ output IS connected to the battery , as it should be.

Yes, the regulator can malfunction. It can let the alt go full on with no regulation. Or it can also malfunction such that the Alt puts out zero.
 
T

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
When you measured the 12.6 V on the B+ terminal, where did you put your black test lead? Verify (with engine off) that you read the same at the B+ terminal with the black test lead touching the Alt housing and then also with black lead touching the chassis. This is just to check that the Alt is grounded.
 
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M

Mike Armstrong

Bronze Level Sponsor
Tom H said:
When you measured the 12.6 V on the B+ terminal, where did you put your black test lead? Verify (with engine off) that you read the same at the B+ terminal with the black test lead touching the Alt housing and then also with black lead touching the chassis. This is just to check that the Alt is grounded.
Click to expand...

Just checked the voltage with the engine off. At the battery it’s 12.7 volts, at the alternator B+ post it’s also 12.7 volts both grounded to the alternator housing and grounded to the engine.

So, when the engine is close to idle I can expect no charging from the alternator, unless the battery is low, and that would make that 12.3 volt reading I got at the B+ terminal ok and that B+ connection to the battery is good.

I think by getting +30 amp reading, 17 volts at the battery and rapidly warm to the touch alternator while the older voltage regulator is/was connected to both the old and new alternator, it verifies that the older voltage regulator is bad. Assuming the new alternator is good, same wiring, and no ‘obvious’ problems, ie, disconnected, broken or worn, that steers me back to the new voltage regulator. Could I have replaced the old one with a wrong one? With a good alternator and wiring, is that alternator light staying on a sign that the voltage regulator is not able to function correctly? I assume you can’t just connect any voltage regulator, how do the differ? Maybe I’ve now got the wrong voltage regulator connected,?
 
260Alpine

260Alpine

Silver Level Sponsor
85 ford voltage regulator.jpg Mike, You can run jumpers from the alternator, Stator to S,Field to F, A back to Alternator Bat., I to Ign. on solenoid to eliminate the harness being the issue.
 
T

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Mike, are the terminals on the new regulator labeled the same as on the old one? Do the terminals correspond to the terminals on the drawing I linked? i.e. I, A, S, F . Yes, it's possible to have the wrong Voltage regulator. How did you choose the new one you have?
 
M

Mike Armstrong

Bronze Level Sponsor
FIXED!

I’m blaming myself on this one.

Apparently the new replacement voltage regulator was the wrong one. I took it back to NAPA and had them look it up. Turned out, even though the old and new looked exactly the same, they were for two different applications. The old one could be used with Ford vehicles, the new one is for Oldsmobile’s. Though they have they same connections, I don’t know how they differ internally and I don’t remember how/why I ordered that specific one. Anyhoo, I got one specifically for a Ford Bronco II, just as I did with the alternator.

Took just a couple minutes to swap’em out. Started it up, red light is off, amp gauge is reading about +5 amps, battery is getting around 14.5 volts and the alternator is cool to the touch, nice!

A big thanks to Tom (he even called me at home to help) and of coarse Jim, always in my corner.
 
260Alpine

260Alpine

Silver Level Sponsor
Mike, Glad to be of assistance! It is a learning experience, and very helpful to others to know how you resolved it. Now get out and drive that car!
 
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