husky drvr
Platinum Level Sponsor
Tim,
If you're interested, the two pages in WSM 124, starting on the page in the image, would be the place to start.
Information straight from Rootes engineers, so to speak.
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Enjoy.
Jerking While Driving and... Stall
- Thread starter Scotty
- Start date
Tim,
If you're interested, the two pages in WSM 124, starting on the page in the image, would be the place to start.
Information straight from Rootes engineers, so to speak.
Durhamguy
Platinum Level Sponsor
I had a similar issue except for boiling gas. Checked out everything the group has mentioned. A long story short, eventually traced it to fuel line rust from original metal line. You mentioned you are running a Weber, suggest you check the fuel filter in the Weber for residual if you haven't done so. In my case the contamination was caught there but there was so much it blocked the filter. I could run 3 or 4 kms then it started to jerk and stall, restarted but would stall again. The last time I had to get a flatbed ride home. Ended up pulling the tanks and resealing and running new fuel line. Problems solved. Maybe my thoughts aren't any use but thought I would throw them out to you just in case. Understand your frustration but you will eventually find the cause. All the best.
So it all started after getting gas and driving 1 mile, you may want to hook up a small tank and hose to the pump and run it with known good fuel. I have seen plenty of bad gas over the years. Finding a shop with a scope would help diag the ignition system. I miss our old Sun scope from 1978.
Scotty
Silver Level Sponsor
It's when it has shut the car down. Has done so twice and a third time where my starter decided to Go Klingon and say 'Today is a good day to die!'.
I'll try the small tank idea just to rule out anything that comes after. Thank you for that great idea!
Scotty
Silver Level Sponsor
So I removed the Electronic Ignition and discovered that the magnet that sits below the rotor was toast. There were glazed areas of the magnet and it looked damaged. For the heck of it, I tried to see how much of it was still a magnet. Whole sections of the circumference were no longer magnetic but the entire bottom of the magnet was all magnetic. Weird.
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SunbeamRuss
Donation Time
I have seen two Pertronix electronic ignition systems fail because the magnet ring that mounts under the rotor falls apart. The ring is a plastic case that holds 4 magnets (for a 4 cyl engine). The case has a bottom that glues on and in both cars the bottom of the case came unglued and the magnets fell out into the distributor. In both situations the car stopped running with a no-spark condition. The Hot-Spark system looks like it uses a similar magnet ring so if it fell apart that could be your problem. However, I would expect physical failure of the magnet ring to be a permanent issue, not intermittent. On the other hand, it is entirely possible that the electronic sensor of the Hot-Spark system could suffer a temperature related failure - I have seen this in a Pertronix system at least once. There are a couple of things you can do to test whether the ignition is firing: first - get an ignition spark tester which is a neon bulb with wires that allow it to be connected inline with the spark plug. You can connect it to any plug and you should see the neon lamp light up each time the plug fires. It should be of even brightness and consistent as the engine cranks or runs. If you buy 4 spark testers you can test all 4 plugs at once. Second - use an incandescent test light connected across the coil. When the electronic ignition module is in the "open" state, there should be no voltage drop across the coil and the test light should not light up. When the ignition module "closes" (e.g. creates a path to ground which charges up the coil) the test light should illuminate. As you crank the engine you should see the light blink on/off consistently. When the engine starts, it will probably blink so fast it will look steady. I don't know if this test will work with a test lamp that has LEDs and electronics in it (there are some fancy ones that do) and it generally doesn't work with a digital multimeter. However, if you connect an analog multimeter across the coil set to read 12 volts, while cranking you will see the needle bounce up and down as the coil is charged and fired (still an incandescent test lamp works much better).
Barry
Diamond Level Sponsor
Entirely too logical.
husky drvr
Platinum Level Sponsor
Barry,
He did and edited out most of the post.
Scotty,
Congratulations on getting your engine running more like you think it should.
I'm now looking forward to your updates as you get it dialed in to your satisfaction.
Happy motoring,
Scotty
Silver Level Sponsor
That's why they were installed in the car before I had written that post
.But no one would know that because I somehow deleted half the post
To preamble, I've never done anything with Points. Ever. So this is a learning experience. It took me an hour and a half to figure out that the plastic piece on the points goes over the condenser and fine line wire.
After that, it cranked. Ran like absolute trash, but it ran and warmed up, actually ran better than it ever has. It shook at first and then straightened itself out and didn't vibrate much. Fiddled with vacuum advance and it ran much better, which is weird because its not supposed to mess with idle, or so I thought.
I spent the last day researching and learning as much as I can about the 25D4 distributor and found a way to test the condenser with a multimeter and discovered that the new Condenser I have... isn't that good.
I pulled the rotor top and starter the car with a remote starter and saw intermittent flashes on the points, occasionally a very bright one, some not there and a barely noticeable spark here and there. No worries, picking up two more today and I'll test those in the auto store parking lot before they go on the car.
Then it's once again on to the Weber, which has decided that it wants to run nicely above 1000 RPM, which tells me I might have a vacuum leak somewhere. Going to yank it today or tomorrow and clean it up.
Once I have my new phone, I'll post picks of the PCV valve. Right now, I have the manifold plugged with a 3/4" metal pipe plug as I clean things up and work things out.
Learning stuff I should have known one step at a time. Feel like I've spent too much time chasing my own damn tail without realizing it.
Durhamguy
Platinum Level Sponsor
Happy to hear you made progress and I am sure you will fine tune everything. Found it to be a huge learning experience but satisfying once you nail it.
My IV needs choke to start even in the summer, run it a minute or two and it is fine and settles down to an idle @ 850-900rpm. You can adjust the Weber once it is warmed up. I set my point gap a bit larger than what the WSM says given the 25D is 60 years old and worn. Worked for me. I also followed Tim'Rs comments on venting the tappet gases to the road, so no pcv. I used a book called "Mechanical Ignition Handbook" by Rob Siegal as my reference guide. Lots of information on how to for mechanical ignition.
My IV needs choke to start even in the summer, run it a minute or two and it is fine and settles down to an idle @ 850-900rpm. You can adjust the Weber once it is warmed up. I set my point gap a bit larger than what the WSM says given the 25D is 60 years old and worn. Worked for me. I also followed Tim'Rs comments on venting the tappet gases to the road, so no pcv. I used a book called "Mechanical Ignition Handbook" by Rob Siegal as my reference guide. Lots of information on how to for mechanical ignition.
husky drvr
Platinum Level Sponsor
The vacuum advance should not >>> unless throttle butterfly is open too far by adjustment.
The position of the Vacuum canister's position adjustment DOES affect ignition timing by its position relative to the distributor body - by design. It's a convenience for SMALL adjustments without having to use a timing light.
Those sparks are a function of the condenser and the job it doesn't always do very well - not the points.
The sparks are the cause of the point contacts wearing. The more and brighter the sparks, the faster the contacts erode. The contacts usually wear before the rubbing block wears out. Keep an eye on them and install new points when needed.
You're getting there,
Scotty
Silver Level Sponsor
So I am having hard start problems. Replaced the condenser and it will fire up if I slightly hold the throttle, but it hates life.
I checked the fuel line and the Weber and fuel is happily making its way to and through the Carb. Points do spark. Plugs do spark.
Considering adjusting the gap on the points from the .015 in the book. I've heard other folks going as far as .025 and I'm wondering if this is a good idea or not. I haven't done anything with Dwell yet and am just looking for anything else I should check or look at before doing anything else.
I have a new Coil, new points, new condenser, new fine wire, new wireset and newish spark plugs.
Thoughts?
Also, what is Dwell supposed to be on a 1725 engine?
I checked the fuel line and the Weber and fuel is happily making its way to and through the Carb. Points do spark. Plugs do spark.
Considering adjusting the gap on the points from the .015 in the book. I've heard other folks going as far as .025 and I'm wondering if this is a good idea or not. I haven't done anything with Dwell yet and am just looking for anything else I should check or look at before doing anything else.
I have a new Coil, new points, new condenser, new fine wire, new wireset and newish spark plugs.
Thoughts?
Also, what is Dwell supposed to be on a 1725 engine?
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husky drvr
Platinum Level Sponsor
use the choke
don't change
no
reset the plug gaps to 0.032" > reset ignition timing to factory specs > baseline the carb like it's a new installation You've changed enough stuff that the conditions it was set for do not exist now.
You can't - It's not adjustable except by point gap >>> widening the point gap reduces the dwell = bad
60* +/- 3*
Scotty
Silver Level Sponsor
Quick Update:
I followed Don's advice list. The Gap is .015 on the dot. Went out and bought new plugs because the ones I put in are fouled up now. Gapped as advised.
Started the car. It wanted to turn over on the dot. I had to adjust the idle speed on the Weber to get the car to fire up. It shook for awhile but if I gave it idle speed and dialed around the mixture, it straightened out and warmed up pretty quick. I shut it down and tried to restart and it backfired through the carb. Pulled the air filter and found white smoke and the sound of boiling in the Weber. Put the air filter back on. Leaving it be until it cools off.
The Weber was at base setting and I had to go 4 full turns and 1 out on the mixture to get it to run without shaking.
Choke KILLS the engine or has no effect. To be fair, Choke has always had this way of killing the engine if I used more than half choke...
Vacuum Advance is turned all the way/deactivated in as it was when I got the engine built.
No weird sounds, no pinging, none of that. I'm at a total loss right now.
Tomorrow I'm yanking the Weber off the car and cleaning it up.
What's going on? What am I missing?
I followed Don's advice list. The Gap is .015 on the dot. Went out and bought new plugs because the ones I put in are fouled up now. Gapped as advised.
Started the car. It wanted to turn over on the dot. I had to adjust the idle speed on the Weber to get the car to fire up. It shook for awhile but if I gave it idle speed and dialed around the mixture, it straightened out and warmed up pretty quick. I shut it down and tried to restart and it backfired through the carb. Pulled the air filter and found white smoke and the sound of boiling in the Weber. Put the air filter back on. Leaving it be until it cools off.
The Weber was at base setting and I had to go 4 full turns and 1 out on the mixture to get it to run without shaking.
Choke KILLS the engine or has no effect. To be fair, Choke has always had this way of killing the engine if I used more than half choke...
Vacuum Advance is turned all the way/deactivated in as it was when I got the engine built.
No weird sounds, no pinging, none of that. I'm at a total loss right now.
Tomorrow I'm yanking the Weber off the car and cleaning it up.
What's going on? What am I missing?
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Hi. I'm not trying to be a busybody but I had familiar problem and it was super loose springs on the advance weights under the point plate. Food for thought, good luck. Lee
Unfortunately today’s fuel is not for old cars. I thought maybe non ethanol gas would have a higher boiling point but seems that’s not the case, although some people have said it helps. Gas will boil freely in the carb on a hot engine and makes a hard restart sometimes. Give it half throttle when cranking will help.
Scotty
Silver Level Sponsor
I'm putting that on my list of things to go through. Once the car is back on the street I'll circle back and check that. I've heard the springs are a weak point and something to watch with the 25D.
Scotty
Silver Level Sponsor
Update:
Went through the Weber. Took the lid off and measured the float again and it was off abit. Adjusted it to 35mm verticle closed, 51mm full open. The primary had trash somewhere around the jet where it would sometimes spit gas and sometimes not, so I cleaned through that. Now it spits consistently. Took out the primary venturi and cleaned the barrel and butterfly. Sealed it back up.
I noticed in the Weber rebuild kit there's a spacer for the top of the Weber to the air cleaner, so I put it on just because. I do not have a spacer under the carb, just the gasket, so I'll be looking to add one asap.
Fired up the car and it hit right off... and died. The car hates anything that is more than 1/4 choke. It runs and when it warms up its sitting at almost 2000 RPM and wanted to jump higher. I turned down the idle speed and went 3 full turns backwards until it idled at about 1000 RPM. Was able to get it to idle at 600 and I know that's not realistic but it did it and it didn't vibrate much. It also stopped smoking in the primary barrel too.
It sounds a lot stronger than it did with the electronic ignition and I don't hear any surging or any goofy stuff; this engine means business. I know I'm still aways from driving it again but for the first time since I broke down, I actually have a car again thanks to yall and especially Don, who I'm fairly sure would love nothing more than to reach through the screen and choke me to death lol.
I'm going to follow the Weber tuning instructions since for the first time in forever the car wants to play ball with it. Where I thought 1-1/2 turns in for the idle speed was more like SIX, which I still don't get how I did that - screwed in til the throttle and screw touch, then screw in 1-1/2 more. Oy.
Live and learn.
On a side note, does anyone know exactly how the manual choke gets set up? Is it really just to close the butterflies and slightly advance the throttle? I've looked everywhere and every writeup is either on the dgEv or folks like me asking how to set it up or adjust it right, so umm... how?
Thanks fam!
Went through the Weber. Took the lid off and measured the float again and it was off abit. Adjusted it to 35mm verticle closed, 51mm full open. The primary had trash somewhere around the jet where it would sometimes spit gas and sometimes not, so I cleaned through that. Now it spits consistently. Took out the primary venturi and cleaned the barrel and butterfly. Sealed it back up.
I noticed in the Weber rebuild kit there's a spacer for the top of the Weber to the air cleaner, so I put it on just because. I do not have a spacer under the carb, just the gasket, so I'll be looking to add one asap.
Fired up the car and it hit right off... and died. The car hates anything that is more than 1/4 choke. It runs and when it warms up its sitting at almost 2000 RPM and wanted to jump higher. I turned down the idle speed and went 3 full turns backwards until it idled at about 1000 RPM. Was able to get it to idle at 600 and I know that's not realistic but it did it and it didn't vibrate much. It also stopped smoking in the primary barrel too.
It sounds a lot stronger than it did with the electronic ignition and I don't hear any surging or any goofy stuff; this engine means business. I know I'm still aways from driving it again but for the first time since I broke down, I actually have a car again thanks to yall and especially Don, who I'm fairly sure would love nothing more than to reach through the screen and choke me to death lol.
I'm going to follow the Weber tuning instructions since for the first time in forever the car wants to play ball with it. Where I thought 1-1/2 turns in for the idle speed was more like SIX, which I still don't get how I did that - screwed in til the throttle and screw touch, then screw in 1-1/2 more. Oy.
Live and learn.
On a side note, does anyone know exactly how the manual choke gets set up? Is it really just to close the butterflies and slightly advance the throttle? I've looked everywhere and every writeup is either on the dgEv or folks like me asking how to set it up or adjust it right, so umm... how?
Thanks fam!
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husky drvr
Platinum Level Sponsor
It's not polite to cast aspersions at my metaperspective.
That's how untrue rumors can be started online about someone who you only know because of innuendo from someone whose information they can't be sure is truthful - or just carefully edited.
Maybe you should really read the two quotes in my signature and think about what they mean and imply.
Sore subject - and it's not LOL
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