is it still a tiger?

[Alpineracer8]

Information on every state is here:
http://www.bipac.net/page.asp?content=tag_title_toolbox&g=SEMAGA

I looked at Ky. site and it appears under SOME circumstances it is legal to swap a VIN. I looked at Ohio also and it is def permissible, but possibly easier with body on frame vehicles. I guess in that case the frame is whats titled and not the body. A lot of older cars have the VIN attached to the drivers door. What happens when the door rusts, or is wrecked? Change the door or junk the car? I have a friend that owns a COPO 427 Camaro that he has totaled 2 times, the only original body part left on that car is the cowl, with VIN attached. The entire front end is replacement sheetmetal, the car was clipped to repair it, meaning it was cut in half and the rear half of a completly differnt car was used to weld it back together. Is IT the same valuable vehicle it was when new??

Certainly a COPO Camaro is one seriously valuable piece of machinery. It's too bad that your friend's car has had such a rough life. You mentioned that some cars have the VIN attached to the driver's door. While true, it is almost invariably stamped into some other part of the vehicle as well. I can speak for early Shelbys as I use to own a '65 G.T. 350. The Shelby serial number was on a plate that was riveted over the Ford-stamped Mustang serial number on the driver's inner fender panel. The Ford serial number was also stamped on the passenger side inner fender panel and covered by the passenger side outer fender itself. In order to see it, you had to unbolt the fender and pull it away from the car. I've also been told that they were stamped in other places on the chassis, but I never bothered to look any further on my car.

As far as the value of your friend's Camaro, if the history goes with the car as it should, no, it would generally be considered to be less valuable than a car that had sustained little or no damage in it's life. Is it still worth something because of what it is?...you betcha it is. It's a COPO Camaro and, as such, it'll always bring more than a regular Camaro. Here, though, is where you start splitting hairs. Depending upon the buyer, the car may be worth more to one guy than to the next for a myriad of reasons. Personally, given the history and the fact that I would be more inclined to be interested in it for it's collectibility, I would probably pass on it. However, if I were going to take it out and possibly vintage drag race it, then the damage history wouldn't mean nearly as much to me.

 

[Alpineracer8]

Information on every state is here:
http://www.bipac.net/page.asp?content=tag_title_toolbox&g=SEMAGA

By the way, thanks for posting this link...definitely well worth the effort. I haven't checked into other states yet, but I did look at my home state's statutes and found the info I needed to support my earlier statement. I haven't yet had the time to look up other states, but I'm sure we will soon hear from the approriate people from those other states whose opinion differs from mine. Thanks again for the link!!

 

[Nickodell]

With top-rate Tigers now reaching 6 figures, to me VIN-swapping is like putting a Picasso signature on a Paint-by-Numbers masterpiece.

(Side note: Am I the only one who does a mental eye-roll when people say "VIN number" or for that matter "PIN number"? I want to ask "what does the N stand for?" Number number - it's like a stutter, or Major Major Major from Catch 22.)

 

[agmason54]

Catch22 at Joe's garage

It's a real Minderbinder when some Shiesskoff swaps the Vin number. I know someone who bought my Pink SIV and gave me back the California pink slip with VIN tags. Does this mean I own his 'Tiger'? He got steamed when I asked him why he wanted to buy my Tiger manual when he did'nt own one.He now goes by Tigerrick on Ebay. Its a Heller of a thing.
Meanwhile back to California... Great Googly Moogly Warren Cucarulo! How does one get a title for a California car with no title?

Frank & Joseph RIP*

AGM



* Thats Zappa and Joe Heller for those who don't listen to music, read or have a clue what I'm talking about.

 

[65beam]

tiger

it's amazing how much some folks worry and fret over what others do with there possesions. if i want to do something with my cars i see no reason to ask other owners if i can do it. you didn't pay for it,you didn't work on it,so don't tell me what i can do. i know many owners that think the same way. if i wanted to spend the money to rebuild a tiger or alpine you can bet i would remove the vin plate for paint rather than make the car look like some bodged up mess. that's called common sense and pride in my cars. i also saw that pride from many beam owners in the last four days.

 

[Bikesandfires]

Thanks again for the link!!

You're welcome, I'm glad I could contribute

He bought that car in the early '70's, when we were teenagers. No one knew anything about COPO then. (around here at least). It was just another big block Camaro. He blew the motor and swapped it out for a small block and automatic before he ever found out the car was something special...LOL...He sold it a couple of years ago (in the $60,000 range),he included the original 4 speed and pedals, and the buyer could see it didn't have the right motor, but I'm not sure how much was disclosed of the cars history.

I do agree about the splitting hairs. but I can also see both sides. If I own both vehicles in question, I'm pretty much going to want to do as I please with them...But I also don't want to get taken in a sale. Buyer beware I guess and know what you are looking for, and what you're looking at, before money changes hands. I question the idea that certain VIN's were born and meant to be Tiger's or Cobra's or COPO cars for that matter. In Fords case, there is a point in the assembly plant or central office that matchs a build sheet to a customer order, but I don't believe there was a specific VIN assigned at the point of ordering.

A private individual is different than a business. The Mustang Restoration place in OK that got its cars confiscated was buying old Mustangs and using the VIN to re-create new cars. They are still in court the last I heard, that will be interesting to see the outcome of that case.

 

[Warren]

You go see the CA. DMV first, they set the gears in motion to allow you to then visit the Calif. Highway Partol. you trailer the car or motorcycle ther as it is not allowed to touch the road. If it has no vin the scour the car for any hidden vin data. If they find it clean and simply missing the vin plate they refer you back to DMV for a new assigned tag.

Their due diligence includes but is not limited to checking all insurance data bases as well as co operating states DMV. " A pal just went thru this with his Bugeye Sprite"

If the car has a tag but no title they still inspect it in the same manner as above. You apply for a duplicate title at the DMV. It can be scary they kept a small Honda S90 for two weeks, but it was clean have a Japanese vin and was never titled in Ca.

I am a Warren but not a Cucacarullo if I was I'd be with charming Mary from Canoga Park.

Oh, and PS I do not condone the swapping of a vin plate even if you have two Tigers and you want to make the plate match the current color of the car. The greater majority of Tigers and Alpines have had the tags removed for painting. Once removed the barn door is open and that horse is gone, But that said the stories of crafty types or New Old Stock factory rivets blank silk screened vin tags can be true and I have seen em.

66 MK1A TAC 821
I would rather be known by my TAC as it is my opinion it makes it easier to create a car if you know the claimed vs unclaimed or MIA = missing in action. Tigers

 

[Alpineracer8]

I question the idea that certain VIN's were born and meant to be Tiger's or Cobra's or COPO cars for that matter. In Fords case, there is a point in the assembly plant or central office that matchs a build sheet to a customer order, but I don't believe there was a specific VIN assigned at the point of ordering.

Actually, what I meant by my comment regarding cars being "born" with VINs was that a car, when built, is "assigned" or "given" or "born" with a VIN and that number stays with it all of its life. That's all I was referring to.

 

[Alpineracer8]

it's amazing how much some folks worry and fret over what others do with there possesions. if i want to do something with my cars i see no reason to ask other owners if i can do it. you didn't pay for it,you didn't work on it,so don't tell me what i can do. i know many owners that think the same way. if i wanted to spend the money to rebuild a tiger or alpine you can bet i would remove the vin plate for paint rather than make the car look like some bodged up mess. that's called common sense and pride in my cars. i also saw that pride from many beam owners in the last four days.

It's amazing to me, Bob, how you can dance around the issue and throw up all kinds of smoke and mirrors to cloud the original statement that you made earlier that has led to all of this. In case you have forgotten, that statement was:

it's not illegal to remove vin tags and rebody a car if you go thru the proper channels...

After you made that statement, you were asked once by Mark and once by me as to how that was possible; what were these "proper channels" that you eluded to? The questions had nothing to do with the removal of VIN plates to have a car repainted, as you would have everyone believe in your latest post. The questions had EVERYTHING to do with your statement about re-bodying a car and removing the VIN tags…go back and re-read the thread.

Personally, I don't give a rip what you do with your money and/or your cars. However, I give a BIG rip, as should everyone on this forum and in the entire hobby, when someone talks about switching VINs. That kind of activity can have a long-term affect on the marque, as well as the entire hobby for that matter. You could clear all of this up, though, by pointing us to your State’s statute that deals with how it’s legal to move a VIN plate from one car to another. But, seeing as how you’ve had ample opportunity to do just that but haven't, it’s obvious that you either won’t or can’t. But, that’s okay; this is a public forum and everyone here is smart enough to read this thread and draw their own conclusions.

 

[65beam]

tiger

andy,
i don't have time right now to explain. we have been too busy playing with sunbeams for the last couple weeks. we're in rainy nashville right now. some things are priority and going to supper is a priority at this moment.

 

[Alpineracer8]

No problem, Bob...hope you guys had a good time!! Wish I could have been there, too. I'll be interested in what you have to say when you get a chance to respond. Take care getting home!!