dual webers?

[64beam]

There is something about this little engine that I love. Given that this will be a slow, and painful restoration, I am more realistically going to be putting all of my faith and money into this rootes 1592. The rebuild you mentioned with upgrades is in my 5 year plan, but of course, I am taking care of the basics first.

Hi Lester,

It is really good to hear someone putting faith into the Rootes group engines. They may not provide ground breaking power but they are reliable and economical, and when modified correctly can provide very satisfying performance. Good luck with your planning and restoration. Keep us informed on its progress.

Regards, Robin.

 

[jumpinjan]

My opinion - If one gets these Alpines fixed up "right", they are great cars that run & run and perform pretty good.
Dual carbs - Ian, Doug Stockman & myself, have a dual carb setup using 2 holley singles (from a Ford pickup) mounted on the series II manifold. They seem to fit and have been on an engine, but their jetting is off and ran rich. That project is on hold for the winter, but we will get on it when Ian & I resume work on the Kimes race car this spring.
Jan

 

[napa 1]

Lester, I too have gone around and around about which way to go with the power plant on my series one. Upgrade to a 1725?, convert to V6? I even checked into a So Cal company that had just put an electric engine into a Series 2 Alpine. In the end, like you, I came to the conclusion that I wanted to focus on rehabilitating the existing engine, using various modifications that have been discussed on the forum to improve function and reliabilty etc.
One by one, I'm replacing everything with new, from the starter to the horns. Even though I think the twin Zeniths are the coolest looking thing on the car, I'm opting to go with the ease and reliablity of the Webers. Maybe electronic Ignition?
At this point if I wanted to take it out for a spin, I'd have to push it...but I'm hopeful.

(Posting the shift boot today).

John.

 

[Lester]

There are some days when I get home from work to find no one has replied to my posts...and then there are days like today when I find that an entire page of bickering has taken place. It's quite enjoyable. I am sure that a V6 is everything it's talked up to be. I just can't give up on the stock engine quite yet. I haven't even seen under the head. Now, if I find a foot-long crack, you may be hearing from me Jose. Until that day comes, I'll just keep at it with "ze girly-man" engine. This post is certainly dealing with opinions regarding a rather expensive uprgrade to 4 barrels of carb, and wether or not the stock engine would sufficiently use this upgrade. I feel like I am really utilizing the forum when I get people arguing. As a novice, both to Alpines, and old cars in general, I respect all opinions stated here. I wouldn't even know where to start without you all. I will continue running zeniths until I am ready to start the upgrades. I am a firm believer in planning ahead. When I am ready to beef this car up a bit, I will have had countless conversations on the forum which will help me decide what I want to do.
Endless thanks, Lester

 

[Bill Blue]

Lester, while you are in the "dream" stage, here is one to consider. Use the two zenith carby manifold with a couple of small Throttle Body Injectors. Drive them with Mega Squirt. Driveability and performance. Have a flat spot, no problem. Hook up the laptop and wideband oxygen sensor and take care of it!

Not near the expense or headache of Webers.

Bill

 

[Lester]

thanks bill,
I am researching this right now. Never thought of doing this before, have you done this?
-Lester

 

[alpine_64]

"Not near the expense or headache of Webers."

Bill

Yeah... am sure its just a bolt on.. ... bill webers can be hard or easy.. deoends on your knowledge or that of people near you.

 

[Bill Blue]

No, I have not done this. Nor, I think, has anyone else. Does not mean it cannot be done or would not work. I'm sure there would be problems, there always are, that is why few people try, fewer succeed. It would be a good winter project to do on a runner. Maybe two or three winters. You know, drive the zeniths in the summers, work on the TBI's in the winter.

Michael, in the initial post, he was talking about bolting a pair of two bbl Webers onto the stock Zenith manifold. That is hard, hard, hard. Compared to that, this would be a walk in the park. At least the TBI is tunable without spending a hundred everytime you want to try something.

Bill

 

[64beam]

Hi Bill,

I like your original idea. I'm sure this could be possible with a bit of blood, sweat and tears. I sure Jarrid could tell us the pros and cons though, in a new topic in the modified section of course.

Regards, Robin.

 

[alpine_64]

Michael, in the initial post, he was talking about bolting a pair of two bbl Webers onto the stock Zenith manifold. That is hard, hard, hard. Compared to that, this would be a walk in the park. At least the TBI is tunable without spending a hundred everytime you want to try something.

Bill

sorry Bill, i thought you were reffering to the DCOE setup.. i think the IDF DGV twin idea is a BIG call.. and one i would not do.. that would be hard.. sorry for the misunderstanding.. and yes.. i would go injection if i was going that route.. but if goign injection, i would go throttle body weber style anyway.. jarrid has a single TB system on an alpine manifold iposted at one point

 

[RootesRacer]

sorry Bill, i thought you were reffering to the DCOE setup.. i think the IDF DGV twin idea is a BIG call.. and one i would not do.. that would be hard.. sorry for the misunderstanding.. and yes.. i would go injection if i was going that route.. but if goign injection, i would go throttle body weber style anyway.. jarrid has a single TB system on an alpine manifold iposted at one point

Jarrid wouldn't use TBI to power his lawnmower, nor would he use megasquirt.

Jarrid's alpine fuel injection is multi point, the latest version uses bolt on throttle bodies (NOT TBI) that replace DCOE webers.

 

[Bill Blue]

Michael, "throttle body, Weber style". You got me there. What is that?
Maybe I would go that route too!
Bill

 

[64beam]

Michael, "throttle body, Weber style". You got me there. What is that?
Maybe I would go that route too!
Bill

Hi Bill,

Basically and I mean basically, (as Jarid will probably explain to you in more detail) a throttle body is similar to DCOE/DHLA carbies in that you run four choke housings with throttle butterflies and injectors mounted into them controlled by a fuel management computer. In other words, fuel injection. Do a search on the internet and you will understand what we mean .

Regards, Robin.

 

[alpine_64]

Bill.. yes jarrid and robin have explained what i meant by throttle body injectio nweber style, infact the pics jarrid posted long ago of his setup were enough to make me drool! Would love to see the pics of the setup on the motor.. the fuel rail itself was a work of art.

Jarrid.. sorry about the TBI comment.. put that one down to typing while thinking. i was reffering to the first injection system you showed us with the modified (single solex?) manifold and the large throttle body up top.. it was an ugly bit of equipment but probably quite effective.

As for me.. i am thinking of taking the DCOE's off my car... and going to a single weber DGV.. i have been looking at this for about 7 months.. and everytime i am about to doo it i get that gap in traffic.. my foot goes down and i smile.. it just makes it so right! Also when you open the bonnet and see those nice big carbs... however, i think i am goin gto be sorted for sunbeam performance in the near future... plans are afoot!

 

[Bill Blue]

Okay. So you are talking about four TBI's, located near the head with a tuned intake runners? That is complicating things a lot and prolly give the ultimate result. For street, how would that be superior to the "normal" EFI with tuned runners terminating in a log with a single throttle plate?

I was thinking of two TBI's, mounted on the manifold. This would be simplist and should give very good performance and give manifold vac for distributor or maybe brakes. Gotta crawl before you walk, let alone run.

Bill

 

[64beam]

As for me.. i am thinking of taking the DCOE's off my car... and going to a single weber DGV.. i have been looking at this for about 7 months.. and everytime i am about to doo it i get that gap in traffic.. my foot goes down and i smile.. it just makes it so right! Also when you open the bonnet and see those nice big carbs... however, i think i am goin gto be sorted for sunbeam performance in the near future... plans are afoot!

Hi Michael,

Does this mean that you have finally sorted out your prospects and that you may soon be posting new threads, namely in the Tiger topics? Are you going to let the cat out of the bag (so to speak) . Am I on the right track .

Regards, Robin.

 

[RootesRacer]

Jarrid.. sorry about the TBI comment.. put that one down to typing while thinking. i was reffering to the first injection system you showed us with the modified (single solex?) manifold and the large throttle body up top.. it was an ugly bit of equipment but probably quite effective.

My first setup was also multi-point.

It used a series 2 (twin zenith) intake, cut and welded with a box.
It used a single "air-door" from a 3.2 chebby V6.

It then had 4 bungs welded into the stock intake runners for the 4 port style injectors.

I really have to differentiate TBI from multi-point because there it a huge difference in both droplet size (due to the older style TBI injectors) and idle quality (also older slower injectors, but also due to the technique of batch fired injectors).

 

[RootesRacer]

Okay. So you are talking about four TBI's, located near the head with a tuned intake runners? That is complicating things a lot and prolly give the ultimate result. For street, how would that be superior to the "normal" EFI with tuned runners terminating in a log with a single throttle plate?

I was thinking of two TBI's, mounted on the manifold. This would be simplist and should give very good performance and give manifold vac for distributor or maybe brakes. Gotta crawl before you walk, let alone run.

Bill

No, I'm talking about 2, 2bbl throttle bodies (not to be confused with TBI, which is throttle body injection), which are each in the weber DCOE mount and form factor. The injectors are mounted to the down throttle side on the throttle bodies. Comes with fuel rails, TPS sensor ETC.

Basically you buy an off the shelf DCOE weber intake, and mount off the shelf EFI throttle bodies on them. In fact the whole rear weber problem goes away because the EFI throttle bodies are shorter and smaller than the weber/dellorto it replaces, which yields more clearances without the trouble.

You could put two TBI units on a zenith or strom intake, but it will never work anywhere near as well as multi-point, there are fuel control issues, atomization ETC, and frankly if you are going to go EFI you should do it up better than that else a carb would be a better bang per dollar.

 

[V6 JOSE]

Jay,

Would that soccer mom you speak about, with her mini van full of kids, beat your Porsche across the intersection? Jim Ellis has a V6 Alpine that beats Porsches, and Honda S2000's, and can beat stock Tigers and 5.0 V8 Mustangs too. I seriously doubt any soccer mom would see anything but V6Series III taillights.

To get a better perspectivre of just what a V6 Alpine is, you need to ride in one. No one, that has not had the opportunity to either ride in one or drive one, can understand what an animal the high performance 2.8 V6 really can be. It is docile in trafic and around town, but when you stand on the right pedal, it is transformed into a bit of a monster. You would never think it had this kind of personality, until you try it.

I'm glad you have opted to stay with the Alpine four cylinder, and upgrade it, but it is a kiddie car, when it comes to performance, compared with any V6 Alpine, much less one like Jim Ellis's. The stock 2.8 V6 is rated at 105 hp, and that is with all the crap that is hung on it and the restrictive exhaust manifolds it comes with. The V6, without all that junk on it, and a set of our equal length tube headers, will produce about 120 honest hp., and that is a completely stock engine. You might be thinking about an Alpine powered by other engines, but not the Ford 2.8 V6.


Jose

To those whom I may have offended, I want to apologize for saying that the Alpine four was a kiddie car, compared to a V6 Alpine. It was intended to be a joke, but i guess it wasn't understood as that. I should have known, that in the politically charged environment that we on this board operate under, because of the controversy about whether to stay stock or go V6, that it might offend those that don't see things as I do. I really am sorry for being insensitive, and will try in the future to chose my words a bit more carefully, so I don't give the wrong impression.

My apologies.

Jose

 

[alpine_64]

Hi Michael,

Does this mean that you have finally sorted out your prospects and that you may soon be posting new threads, namely in the Tiger topics? Are you going to let the cat out of the bag (so to speak) . Am I on the right track .

Regards, Robin.

well i have been looking round at lots of options for sunbeam enjoyment, yes i look at tigers, (and always have and will) i have been collecting bits for a bored/stroked 2 litre alpine, i evene looked at V6'ing a project alpine late last year... but im sure i'll let everyone know what i'm up to in the near future..