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dual webers?

Lester

Donation Time
I'll go out on my non-mechanic limb and ask something which might be insane...
I see a picture of an old 4cyl nissan engine with a dual, 2 barrel weber setup. I am thinking, if one weber is better than 2 zeniths, what about 2 webers? And what about adapting them to the stock zenith manifold? Is this insane?
Would the 1592 be able to handle this? What about a progressive setup?
Let's not deal with fuel economy or emissions issues. Can it be done?
Humbly, Lester
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Lester, two dual throat webers bolted to a zenith intake is indeed, insane. However, there are single barrel webers floating around that might do the job. I think Robert Jaarsma is hoarding a sample of this setup, just waiting for the proper "round tuits".

Bill
 

oldflotsam

Donation Time
Bill, those are Weber 34 ICT carbs. I have a pair in my garage if anyone is interested. They bolt on to the Sunbeam manifold, but the linkage is tricky.

Wayne
 

64beam

Donation Time
Hi Forum,

What about the IDF Webers, there are quite a few performance cars running these style. I actually have a photo of a pair that have been adapted to a rootes manifold. The linkage does'nt look any harder than DCOE's, etc.

Regards, Robin.
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
rob,

That setup on ebay had never run on a car, and had no linkages. Also given the carbs came off a dino ferrari i am betting the progrerssion holes would be an issue. I think you have to say the guy who did that b acked out as its in the to hard basket.. not to mention if they would hit the bonnet.
 

Lester

Donation Time
I knew it would be impractical. I was just getting h.p. envy. I am weighing all options when it comes to my blank slate alpine. I got to thinking about replacing the zeniths not just for reliability, but to really increase performance. Chances are, I will just do the single DGV for the ease of operation. I hear it's basically outpatient surgery, if that. But you know, if were going to move to Ferrari webers, why not just cut out the hood? I don't think I could do that. Just for the sake of argument, what kind of performance improvements would be made by doubling the barrels in an alpine?
-Lester
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
Lester,

If you have a look at the pics in my profile of my dual DCOE setup you can see that the DCOE's are a good conversion. There are some issues for LHD but they are not to bad. Now, if you are going DCOE i would not put them on a stock motor. I would wan tto have head work done and a cam to make better use of the,. Also electronic igntion is a biig help... both setting them up and keeping them in tune.

As for performance.. cant give you actual HP as never dynoed a car on zeniths.. but i know that the throttle response on the DCOE's is fantastic, the top end is MUICH better, and i am guessing with the appropriate head, cam and other work to the engine you are looking to get a good 100bhp from the alpine. Doesnt sound like much, but they dont have much stock.
 

64beam

Donation Time
I knew it would be impractical. I was just getting h.p. envy. I am weighing all options when it comes to my blank slate alpine. I got to thinking about replacing the zeniths not just for reliability, but to really increase performance. Chances are, I will just do the single DGV for the ease of operation. I hear it's basically outpatient surgery, if that. But you know, if were going to move to Ferrari webers, why not just cut out the hood? I don't think I could do that. Just for the sake of argument, what kind of performance improvements would be made by doubling the barrels in an alpine?
-Lester

Hi Lester,

Alot of people will probably tell you if you want performance, go with the V6 conversion. The power of the Tiger with the handling of the Alpine. The side draught option is also a very good conversion, but requires quite a bit of work to get descent performance out of the Rootes engine. The DGV is still a very good conversion even with engine mods you will not be unhappy with the performance either. It's entirely your choice in the end.

Regards, Robin.
 

Lester

Donation Time
Thanks all,
I'd love to go for the V6, but I don't want to bite off more than I can chew at the moment. I am just brainstorming on possible mods in the near future. The car runs, but I've hardly driven it. The brakes are still sketchy. In the meantime, I can daydream. One of the biggest motivations at this point is cost, or lack thereof. I have hopes of a rotisserie restoration, but for now, I just want a driver that can get on the freeway. Maybe I should turn my immediate focus towards a rebuild, or a tranny swap? Thanks again, for all the wise words...I can't get enough of them.
Best, Lester
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Tranny swap? Not unless you are pretty sure you want to stay with the Rootes engine.

It is a great upgrade but will run you about $1500 and if you decide to go the V6 route, will be surplus. Right now, get the basic car fixed up (brakes, electrical, interior) and dependable while your deciding on the future. Sorry to say, but there are no inexpensive, easy engine or transmission upgrades at this time.

Don't underestimate the joy of a "modern" rebuilt Rootes engine. With the "stroker" chevy rods, KB grind cam, Vizzard modified head, Weber two bbl downdraft, all connected to a Toyota 5 speed or T-5 would make an incredible package of fun.

My two cents worth.
Bill
 

Lester

Donation Time
Ah, yes...you can see how I am torn between the dark side and the light. There is something about this little engine that I love. If money were no object, I would probably opt for a V6. Given that this will be a slow, and painful restoration, I am more realistically going to be putting all of my faith and money into this rootes 1592. The rebuild you mentioned with upgrades is in my 5 year plan, but of course, I am taking care of the basics first. The weather is such that I can't work on the car right now. To keep my sanity, I am just thinking through the possiblities and trying to absorb wisdom from the all-knowing forum. Thanks, Lester
 

Jay Laifman

Donation Time
Here's my story. I've posted it here before, but it goes to your issue.

I had a SV for many years. In high school I loved pushing it hard. Then it sat for about 4 years while I was away at school. Upon graduation, I bought a Porsche 911 and the Sunbeam sat some more. Then I got the Alpine running. It seemed all good and everything, but little umph. At the time, I assumed it was because I was used to the 911. I was debating what to do.

As a kid, I always dreamed of hopping it up. Making it a bat out of hell that would scream down the street. At the time, I didn't have the money and I didn't think anything was available. I had heard of side draft Webers as the ultimate in 60's performance. But, that was about it. The V6 route really didn't interest me as I saw my Alpine as a British four banger, and wanted to keep it that way. I did think about the Capri/Pinto overhead cam 2 liter. But, not being a British engine didn't sit right for my Alpine. Also, it would require the help of others for welding and custom work and I wanted to be able to bolt and play by myself.

Then I stumbled onto a NOS Holbay head. The gears started turning. Next thing I knew, I had the NOS Holbay head, a H120 Holbay cam, the dual 40 DCOE 151 Webers, and I was off to the machine shop. The car turned out fantastic - with lots of other fun stuff, like custom pistons, lightened flywheel, head ported further, three way grind, custom exhaust pipes to match the larger Holbay exhaust ports, OD tranny, etc etc, oh, and custom rebuilt distributor to eliminate the vacuum advance and match the performance of the engine.

Ahh, but here comes the surprise. In pulling apart the distributor to recurve it, what should we discover? The weights had rusted/frozen in place during its slumber. So, when I was driving it, and it seemed so slow, it was because I had NO ADVANCE! Thus, ironically, the thing that started me down the Holbay path was all wrong. So, I agree with the other person that the stock Alpine can be great all by itself, when running properly. You don't need to invest tons of money to have a great and rewarding car. That said, I love my car now and it does really scream down the street like a bat out of hell. It LOVES high rpm and breaths soooo nicely up there. It's up to you how much that is worth.

That all said, even with the Holbay set up, the V6 set up, the 2 liter or 2.3 liter set up, or even the injection set up, you're still going to have a hard time beating the soccer mom off the line with her Minivan loaded with kids, with the AC cooling and the radio soothing. "Mom, why is that guy next to us in the funny little car, making all that noise as we pass him, have such a sad look on his face?"
 

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
Jay,

Would that soccer mom you speak about, with her mini van full of kids, beat your Porsche across the intersection? Jim Ellis has a V6 Alpine that beats Porsches, and Honda S2000's, and can beat stock Tigers and 5.0 V8 Mustangs too. I seriously doubt any soccer mom would see anything but V6Series III taillights.:D

To get a better perspectivre of just what a V6 Alpine is, you need to ride in one. No one, that has not had the opportunity to either ride in one or drive one, can understand what an animal the high performance 2.8 V6 really can be. It is docile in trafic and around town, but when you stand on the right pedal, it is transformed into a bit of a monster. You would never think it had this kind of personality, until you try it.

I'm glad you have opted to stay with the Alpine four cylinder, and upgrade it, but it is a kiddie car, when it comes to performance, compared with any V6 Alpine, much less one like Jim Ellis's. The stock 2.8 V6 is rated at 105 hp, and that is with all the crap that is hung on it and the restrictive exhaust manifolds it comes with. The V6, without all that junk on it, and a set of our equal length tube headers, will produce about 120 honest hp., and that is a completely stock engine. You might be thinking about an Alpine powered by other engines, but not the Ford 2.8 V6.


Jose:)
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
How did a thread that started talking about dual webers turn into a perpetual V6 sales pitch?

Half the postings in this thread are off topic.

Jays post was on topic because he outlined the reason why he went to dual webers.

Oh and what forum is this?
Stock alpines.
 

Jay Laifman

Donation Time
Jarrid, Thanks for the defense!

As to the other comments, my point still goes to 'what do you want' and 'what are you willing to give up to get that?' At the end of the day, these are old cars with old technology from wheels to brakes to suspension to every last detail of the engine. And, I like them for that, plain and simple. I don't need something more to enjoy it. At some point, a whole other car is warranted. That's my point.

And, reality here, the Ford Mustang/Capri V6 is getting on in years too, what no variable timing? no variable valve lift, no variable intake runner lengths, no 4 valves/cylinder, no overhead cams, no multi-point direct fuel injection? no engine management systems that adjust for rpm, load, outside temp, engine temp, humidity, gas quality, pre-ignition, etc., etc.? All at the same time, doing an easy 250+ hp using much less gas per mile, and a tiny fraction of exhaust output, not to mention doing it trouble free for 100-200,000+ miles? Look, I'm just as "guilty" in not being stock as the V6 guys. But, the comment I have to take exception to is the "kiddie car" comment. Come on. That is a low blow in a forum of car enthusiasts. It really drops your credibility here. While I think these are ALL kiddie cars, to suggest that in a comparison between two different Alpines is really not acceptable.

I'd also add, though there never is a winner in a armchair racing, I'm comfortable that there are plenty of Alpines with dual Weber set ups that have over 120 hp, and probably including mine. So, even there your comment is wrong.
 

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
Sorry Jarrid,

I didn't mean to offend you. I was surprised that this thread had gone in this direction, but I wanted to respond to the comment that was made.

I don't try to sell my conversion kit to anyone. I am convinced that the V6 conversion is probably the best thing that can be done to an Alpine, but you will not find anyone that I have tried to encourage to buy my kit. I want for everyone to do what they want to do with their Alpines, but I also want to dispell misconceptions about what a V6 converted Alpine is.

As you can see, I rarely comment on this board, so please forgive me this time.:)

Jose:)

Correction:
I think I might have encouraged Jim Ellis a bit, but no one else.
 
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