Can it handle it?

[1fineAlpine]

Hey guys, it's warming up in my neck of the woods, and I've got a fever... Spring fever! I plan on hitting my V8 swap hard this year to try and be ruining my driving record by the end of summer Anyways, I was talking to a guy a few months ago from the catmbr forum, and he mentioned that the stock Alpine front end can't handle the extra weight of the V8, and there's risk of the spindles failing, and other horrible things that could happen when turning corners or hitting bumps when cruising.

I have searched around a bit (maybe not good enough, but I sure tried) to see what all would need to be done to the Alpine crossmember for the swap, and so far all I've seen is to weld all the seams, and I think reinforce the shock area? I also know about having to cut notches in it and plate them for a steering rack, but I may be going another route depending on what I can sort out from the current rack position the previous owner did, which is a frame that comes from the motor mount brackets, and runs under the center of the oil pan.

Any advice on what I'm gonna have to do to the crossmember would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks! Kyle

P.S. I read that I should use 400-450lb front springs. It's weird because it doesn't seem to be squatting at all with the V8 in there, and the springs appear to be stock and untouched and seem to carry the weight very well, but I haven't driven it to know how it handles on the road. Thoughts?

 

[RootesRacer]

The crossmember changes are more for the rack and pinion than anything else.

The key difference are the front springs.

 

[1fineAlpine]

So basically, I don't have to do anything special unless I put the steering rack up front like the Tigers?

Thanks for the reply! Kyle

 

[RootesRacer]

So basically, I don't have to do anything special unless I put the steering rack up front like the Tigers?

Thanks for the reply! Kyle

Yes.

The ford V6 folks are dealing with a similar (though lower than V8) weight motor, similar HP levels and often equipped for cornering better than tigers can using unaltered front suspensions, often with only higher rate springs.

 

[260Alpine]

Kyle, How about some pictures of your front crossmember and rack mount?

 

[1fineAlpine]

Nice! That's gonna save me a lot of time, money, and headaches not having to worry about that crossmember.

I can post some older pics of when I first got the car almost 2 years ago. They aren't the best, since I didn't have it jacked up or anything. I will post some better pics of it once I drop the crossmember and really start putting some time in on it, but that'll be a bit later. The only way I know how to post pics is by them showing up basically full sized. How do I make them a thumbnail?

 

[1fineAlpine]

 

[1fineAlpine]

It currently has a TR4 steering column in it, with a bunch of universal joints connecting to a splined shaft that's held to the inner fender with a bearing, kind of like the Tigers have, but I don't have a very good pic of it at the moment. I have an Alpine column I planned on trying to use. This rack setup is basically just mocked up and held on by hose clamps and a few welds. It seems like it would work out ok if I clean it up and secure the rack better? I have no clue what the rack is out of, possibly the TR4 that the column came from maybe? It looks like I'll need to rebuild it though and get some boots on it. Another rack came with my car that looks like an MG rack, but the deal the steering linkage hooks to looks to be angled different, and I don't believe it'd work with this setup?

This is all the work done by the previous owner, and I haven't touched a thing on it yet. It's still got the beat up "mock up" 302 in it, to spare my good built up motor from getting banged up during the fab work. Sorry, I don't know how to post as thumbnails

 

[260Alpine]

Kyle, It must be a rear steer rack. Behind the A arms. My guess is Dodge Omni would also work. If you use a front steer rack as rear steer the wheels would turn opposite from the steering wheel. A better looking rack frame could be fabricated. Also the tie rods should be parallel with the lower A arms to prevent bump steer. Ackerman is probably a lot better than the Tiger setup.

 

[1fineAlpine]

Jim, I never thought about the wheels turning the opposite way. I would've found out pretty quick though if I had stuck tht rack in there, haha. A better mount setup will definitely be made, once I can drop the cross member and get a better look at the entire setup. Would I be able to maybe shim the tie rods down a bit to level them out, or should I find a better way such as heating and bending, cutting and welding, or just some other steering arms? I've never really had to make a steering setup, and figured I'd be better to ask before just slapping something together and risk failure on the road.

 

[PROCRAFT]

V8 Conversion

The stock crossmember will work just fine with a V8,we built a V8 Alpine in the past, we used a MG Midget rack mounted like a Tiger eventually we fabricated our own crossmember to replace that just like the one on the Tiger we have now, use 450# springs you'll find a mark able difference in
the handling from the stock ones.

 

[1fineAlpine]

Crossmember

Awesome! Ya, I may end up going with the midget rack if I can't find a way to make this setup work. I'm glad the crossmember will work, so now I can concentrate more on other things after I sandblast the crossmember, sort the steering out, then repaint and replace the bushings. I had considered making a cross member and talked with Bob H on the Tiger forum about his custom front crossmember, after I heard the stock wouldn't work. I just don't want to do a lot of extra work at the moment.

I'd like to only replace what's necessary (axle, tranny, steering, springs), get it on the road and enjoy it while working out any issues if they pop up, and as time goes on I'll upgrade when time and money can be spared. I'm still on a tight budget with my play money since we are still battling boundary line and water easement issues that were hidden from us when purchasing our new house back in August. Long story. I was worried I'd be sitting idle on the car for yet another year, but I should be able to get a good amount of work done

Thanks! Kyle

 

[260Alpine]

Kyle, Are the tie rod ends above the steering arms now? You may be able to turn them over or switch sides to mount the tie rods below. You may have to move the rack up and forward also. A new Omni rack is $120 on Ebay. Back when they did the Tiger they never had the twin sump oil pan or Omni rack. If you draw a line from the upper A arm pivot to lower A arm pivot in front the inner rack pivot ideally should be on that line. Looking down from above should be straight within 1" in center and parallel from ball joint to ball joint.

 

[mikephillips]

The main thing with the cross member is that they're all around 50 years old so far. You will want to inspect for any cracking around the original welds and reinforce fix as necessary. Depending on how aggressive you intend to be driving, you may want to reinforce the spring/shock towers to the cross member and around any cuts you make if deciding on the midget rack to avoid future problems. Also inspect the pins running through the inner ends of the A arms. While not normally a problem for Alpines there have been reports of what seems to be metal fatigue breakage in Tigers, replacement or reinforcement isn't a bad thing. Spindles are not a problem as far as I've ever heard, but if you take it out of the car and plan to replace ball joints extra welding on the ring attached to the upper arm is recommended since the factory only used 2-3 spot welds to attach them. And I'd have to go out and look as I don't recall off the top of my head, but the lower A arms have either an extra stop or has one removed for use of the rack. In any case a slight difference from the Alpine use.

Using the Alpine steering isn't recommended as the V8 needs to be set into the firewall about 3 inches. With the Alpine steering the engine needs to be too far forward messing up the weight balance where too much sits on the front wheels. The Ken Miles prototype was like that and he was said to have remarked that while fast in a straight line it was a scary car driving through twists and turns as the handling was unpredictable and the back end too easily broke loose.

 

[260Alpine]

For front rack the best setup I've seen is the manual Porsche 924. It said 928 in the article but that would be a power rack. Here are some pics:

 

[1fineAlpine]

Mike, I was looking into using only the Alpine steering column itself, and none of the other components. I've been outbid on every Tiger column on eBay, a the TR4 column that's currently in it would need some custom brackets and stuff made up to hold it in place, and then I'd loose my stock column surround and turn signal setup that I was hoping to keep. Welding up and reinforcing the spots you mentioned would definitely be piece of mind, and I will make sure to do that.

Jim, with the omni rack, that would be way better than trying to rebuild what I have. I don't have much clearance between the pan and rack at the moment, but maybe something can be worked out? Going forwards won't be an issue though. I'm hoping that I don't have to move it around much? I don't recall exactly how it sits at the moment, and I won't be able to check until tomorrow. The guy I got this car from is a college professor, so I'm hoping he knew how it should line up down there?

 

[1fineAlpine]

Couple more pics stashed on my phone

Here's a couple more pics I found in my 2,000 something pics stashed on my phone. The universal joints will definitely be changed to something better. As it is right now, they pop off when I'm turning and it's a PIA moving the car around my shop, but I went and got me some car dollies and I can roll it wherever I want now

 

[260Alpine]

Kyle, Here is a better looking crossmember for Omni rack in MGB with Ford dual sump pan. Note it is in front of the rack crossmember instead of behind. The width may be different for the MGB:

 

[mikephillips]

Keep in mind that the Alpinr column is about a foot shorter that a Tiger one and would need to have the swaged on worm removed and then splined to use a Tiger like U-jointed connection to the rack. While how you connect the two can take several forms based on what you have available and what you want to spend it'll still require custom mods.

 

[260Alpine]

Kyle, Your engine looks a little low also. You really don't want the oil pan sump hanging down below the front crossmember. Lifting the motor will give more room to level out the tie rods also. The steering U joints should have the pillow block between the top 2 U joints. The middle U joint would be below the pillow block which would be angled toward column and a double U joint at column.