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Automatic Transmission Problems

Knightowl61

Knightowl61

Gold Level Sponsor
History - acquired a '64 alpine Trans with around 45k mi. Pulled pan and everything looked like new. Installed tranny in a '63 series III. A short road test seemed ok, after about 100 highway miles the trans. extremely overheated and spewed fluid all over the road and parking lot.

Back on the bench (couldn't find anyone locally willing to look at it) Couldn't find any major areas where the fluid escaped. There was light debris in the pan and aluminum film inside the torque converter - sent the converter to be rebuilt (rebuilder said needed parts).

Got a major rebuild kit. Took everything apart, all the seals & clutch plates looked like new but I changed them anyway. The only thing noticeable was the spring plate in the front clutch was broken in 4 places. Rebuilt and adjusted the front & rear servos and kichdown cable to book specs.

After installation the car will move on a level surface but couldn't even pull itself up my steep driveway in D1, D2 or reverse. It acts like standing on the brakes while giving gas in gear. The engine bogs down and the car won't move. The brakes are adjusted and the car drifts out of gear.

Took everything back apart and the only thing found was the sprague (one way) clutch which did work one-way on rebuild now spins bothways (on order).

WSM 139 and other BW35 manuals give great info. but I'm totally dumbfounded as what to do.

I welcome any and all suggestions and coments.
 
You wrote - spring plate in the front clutch was broken in 4 places.
There is a reinforcement ring that goes on the flex plate. Check the parts manual. Was this installed?
Are the bands adjusted correctly?
 
twautomotive said:
You wrote - spring plate in the front clutch was broken in 4 places.
There is a reinforcement ring that goes on the flex plate. Check the parts manual. Was this installed?
Are the bands adjusted correctly?
Click to expand...
Spring plate is #9
Rebuilt and adjusted the front & rear servos and kichdown cable to book specs.
 

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I misunderstood spring plate for flex plate. It is item 4 on the drawing. They tend to get lost. Have you tried tightening or loosening the bands?

auto trans.jpg
 
twautomotive said:
I misunderstood spring plate for flex plate. It is item 4 on the drawing. They tend to get lost. Have you tried tightening or loosening the bands?

View attachment 32190
Click to expand...
#4 is on the crank / flex plate, and no the bands weren't adjusted while trying to drive the car (not accessable). They were adjusted during rebuild - front 10 inch pounds & back off 4 turns, rear 10 foot pounds & back off 1 turn. I did adjust the kickdown cable (min & max) with no difference.
 
I found this -
Both bands can be adjusted with the box in-situ. The rear band is used in REVERSE, and that can be adjusted through a hole in the transmission tunnel on the driver's (RHD) side. The front band may be self adjusting, but you need to drop the sump to find out, and to do the adjustment if required. Personally I'd be inclined to drop the sump in any case, as the rear servos have a habit of coming loose or cracking, and that will put the band out of adjustment, and readjusting it won't cure the problem. Loose servos can also crack the main casing. If you don't have any problems with TOP gear that points to the rear band rather than the rear clutch, in which case see if engine braking in "1" is working as it should, which it probably won't be if the rear band is faulty.

This site may help. - https://www.mgexp.com/forum/mgc-forum.48/automatic-transmission-band-adjustment.2437052/

There is something about using a tool to put a spacer before adjusting. I believe the front band is too tight.
 

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Knightowl61 said:
History - acquired a '64 alpine Trans with around 45k mi. Pulled pan and everything looked like new. Installed tranny in a '63 series III. A short road test seemed ok, after about 100 highway miles the trans. extremely overheated and spewed fluid all over the road and parking lot.

Back on the bench (couldn't find anyone locally willing to look at it) Couldn't find any major areas where the fluid escaped. There was light debris in the pan and aluminum film inside the torque converter - sent the converter to be rebuilt (rebuilder said needed parts).

Got a major rebuild kit. Took everything apart, all the seals & clutch plates looked like new but I changed them anyway. The only thing noticeable was the spring plate in the front clutch was broken in 4 places. Rebuilt and adjusted the front & rear servos and kichdown cable to book specs.

After installation the car will move on a level surface but couldn't even pull itself up my steep driveway in D1, D2 or reverse. It acts like standing on the brakes while giving gas in gear. The engine bogs down and the car won't move. The brakes are adjusted and the car drifts out of gear.

Took everything back apart and the only thing found was the sprague (one way) clutch which did work one-way on rebuild now spins bothways (on order).

WSM 139 and other BW35 manuals give great info. but I'm totally dumbfounded as what to do.

I welcome any and all suggestions and coments.
Click to expand...
Update - Disassembled transmission again and everything still looks new. With Doug and my daughter helping, we went thru the wsm139 manual line by line putting everything together torquing and adjusting to book specs. Also did the air pressure tests that worked as described.

Tested again on jack stands and everything seemed to work. Reverse works and drive shifts around 20 mph and speedometer will read 50 mph around 30k rpm (tach probably off a little).
Back on the ground the car moves as it should in the garage but couldn't pull itself up my steep driveway same as before.
Could it be band adjustment or defective rebuilt torque converter? The rear band wsm says torque 10 ft lbs & back off 1 turn, the mgc says back off 2 turns (I backed off 1 1/2 turns the second time).
 
Knightowl61 said:
Update - Disassembled transmission again and everything still looks new. With Doug and my daughter helping, we went thru the wsm139 manual line by line putting everything together torquing and adjusting to book specs. Also did the air pressure tests that worked as described.

Tested again on jack stands and everything seemed to work. Reverse works and drive shifts around 20 mph and speedometer will read 50 mph around 30k rpm (tach probably off a little).
Back on the ground the car moves as it should in the garage but couldn't pull itself up my steep driveway same as before.
Could it be band adjustment or defective rebuilt torque converter? The rear band wsm says torque 10 ft lbs & back off 1 turn, the mgc says back off 2 turns (I backed off 1 1/2 turns the second time).
Click to expand...
Are you going up in first or reverse? It would be worth seeing if it goes up in reverse as that will be a shorter gear .. if it fails with that... Ther is something causing the transfer of power to be reduced under load... When it's on the axle stands there is little resistance at the wheels... When on the ground it has traction and the weight of the car... I'm wondering if slip in the torque converter...?
 
alpine_64 said:
Are you going up in first or reverse? It would be worth seeing if it goes up in reverse as that will be a shorter gear .. if it fails with that... Ther is something causing the transfer of power to be reduced under load... When it's on the axle stands there is little resistance at the wheels... When on the ground it has traction and the weight of the car... I'm wondering if slip in the torque converter...?
Click to expand...
I thought if things slip the engine would race, not bog down.
Ran stall test - under 2k rpm (approx 1850)
Rootes stall test data: (rpm)
1850 normal
under 1500 poor engine
under 1000 stator oneway clutch slipping
over 2000 trans or converter slipping
another passing test.
 
"Back on the ground the car moves as it should in the garage but couldn't pull itself up my steep driveway same as before."

Wouldn't it be something if after all this "work," you're simply low on fluid.
 
Hi everyone.... thank you so much for your suggestions. Keep them coming! I this is my car and my wonderful Dad trying to get me on the road.
I know it's not low on fluid, he overfilled it to compensate for the steep driveway.
 
alpine_64 said:
Are you going up in first or reverse? It would be worth seeing if it goes up in reverse as that will be a shorter gear .. if it fails with that... Ther is something causing the transfer of power to be reduced under load... When it's on the axle stands there is little resistance at the wheels... When on the ground it has traction and the weight of the car... I'm wondering if slip in the torque converter...?
Click to expand...
We tried going up in first and in reverse. Same thing either way.
 
When my torque converter went some 20 years ago, the car just stopped and wouldn't budge, and the torque converter was quite the scarce part to track down back then.

I've also had these exact same problems about 10 years ago and my transmission guy adjusted the bands (I think) without much fanfare (pretty sure he didn't take the transmission out to do it).

Transmission guys with knowledge seem to be all retired or gone. Great to see someone else enjoying an automatic Alpine, and even more heart warming that you're working on the transmission yourself.
 
What fluid do you have in the car? The BW35 needs to only be filled with Ford Type F ATF. Most other fluids and just about ALL of the modern ones have additives in that will wreck the BW and stop it from pulling due to internal slipping.
Tim R
 
WSM-139 for the BW35 automatic transmission specifies Shell Donax T-6 fluid which was a Type F (high static friction) fluid. Like most of the lubricants specified in the WSM's, Shell Donax T-6 disappeared a long time ago.

Most of the readily available (i.e.; local auto parts stores) transmission fluids are "dexron / mercon" transmission fluids that claim to replace both Type A and Type F transmission fluids. While they can meet the technical requirements for both types, they are actually neither fish nor fowl.

I agree with Tim R about using a clearly labeled old-school Type F fluid rather than one of the fluids that can supposedly replace both Type A and Type F.
 
Last edited:
If you use an ATF with Dexron in it you will ruin the BW box (regardless of what the can may say). There are numerous technical posts online explaining why but fixing it is not just a case of changing the fluid.

Tim R
 
Bought 2 cases of AMALIE Ford Type F Automatic Transmission Fluid. First fluid fill got burnt (about 8 qts.)
My daughter knows a guy that knows a guy that knows a guy that will look at the transmission. Took the tranny to him yesterday.

​

 
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