• Welcome to the new SAOCA website. Already a member? Simply click Log In/Sign Up up and to the right and use your same username and password from the old site. If you've forgotten your password, please send an email to membership@sunbeamalpine.org for assistance.

    If you're new here, click Log In/Sign Up and enter your information. We'll approve your account as quickly as possible, typically in about 24 hours. If it takes longer, you were probably caught in our spam/scam filter.

    Enjoy.

Alpine S4 sputters and dies

MKo7144769

Donation Time
My S4 will start fine and idle smoothly. As the temp rises to 195F and on, she will sputter as if not getting gas and then finally dies. I have a mechincal fuel pump with a Weber carb. The car was running fine for the last two months (Oct-Nov) and only started this about a week ago. I purchased the car from Illinois on E-bay and transported to Tucson, so the weather was alot hotter in October then it is in December. Help!:(
 

mccormac98

Gold Level Sponsor
Is the intake manifold on tight? If not, once the engine heats up it could could be drawing air where the manifold bolts on, causing the air-fuel mixture to become leaned out.
 

mccormac98

Gold Level Sponsor
Other possibilities ... bad coil lead. As engine heats up, lead starts arcing. You should be able to see this event with the hood up.

Or ... moisture in the distributor cap or bad wiring from the distributor.
 

MKo7144769

Donation Time
Other possibilities ... bad coil lead. As engine heats up, lead starts arcing. You should be able to see this event with the hood up.

Or ... moisture in the distributor cap or bad wiring from the distributor.

Hi Bill, I ck'd the intake manifold and its bolted tight. I looked at the weber carb with the air cleaner off. It has two venturi's, but only one seems to be working. The fuel pump seems to be working. The glass bowl is consistently filled although bubbles can be seen. If that was an indicator of water, I put in a bottle of sea foam to help dry it out. I read in an earlier thread about drilling out the hole shown on the inside of the gas cap, any thoughts? Ck'd the distributor, all dry. NGK plugs look great.
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Running poorly while warm is a classic symptom of bad coil or capacitor. Old Alpines seem to be susceptible to this condition because owners remove or bypass the coil resistor because they become corroded, resulting in weak spark. The resulting increase in voltage kills things.

Bill
 

Series3Scott

Co-Founder/Past President
Platinum Level Sponsor
Bubbles in the fuel is fine. You sure this is heat related? Any black flakes visible in the fuel pump bowl?
 

mccormac98

Gold Level Sponsor
Hmm ... yes, maybe water in the fuel?

You might take a sample of the fuel by loosening fuel line and filling a glass jar (don't do this when the engine is hot). Then let it sit for a few hours you can see if the water in the bottom of the glass. You can also use the test to look for rust or dirt particles.

Other possibilities ... carburetor. Maybe the idle control valve is gummed up and the engine dies after the choke opens? You can fix that with a can of throttle body cleaner. Clean the idle control valve first and then clean the throttle body.
 

MKo7144769

Donation Time
Hmm ... yes, maybe water in the fuel?

You might take a sample of the fuel by loosening fuel line and filling a glass jar (don't do this when the engine is hot). Then let it sit for a few hours you can see if the water in the bottom of the glass. You can also use the test to look for rust or dirt particles.

Other possibilities ... carburetor. Maybe the idle control valve is gummed up and the engine dies after the choke opens? You can fix that with a can of throttle body cleaner. Clean the idle control valve first and then clean the throttle body.

Thanks for the quick answers. No black flakes in the glass bowl. I will clean the idle control valve and see what happens.
 

mccormac98

Gold Level Sponsor
I should tell you that I experienced the exact same symptoms on my Series 3 and the problem turned out to be the coil lead. I figured it out by running the engine in my driveway until it started exhibiting the problem. I moved the coil and distributor leads and was able to fix and/or make the problem worse.

When driving, the car went from being completely healthy to serious coughing in just a few seconds. It then died.
 

MKo7144769

Donation Time
I should tell you that I experienced the exact same symptoms on my Series 3 and the problem turned out to be the coil lead. I figured it out by running the engine in my driveway until it started exhibiting the problem. I moved the coil and distributor leads and was able to fix and/or make the problem worse.

When driving, the car went from being completely healthy to serious coughing in just a few seconds. It then died.

Thanks, I did switch out the coil with another 12v and it still sputtered and died when I climbed a small hill and put my foot into the accelerator. Is the "coil Lead" you are referring to the wire from the coil to the distributer?

Marc
 

mccormac98

Gold Level Sponsor
Cool - a replacement coil suggests that the problem may be somewhere else. Your description makes it sound like a fuel system problem. It sounds like you are saying that the problem occurs when you put the engine under load. Is this true? And also, was your engine hot when this occurred?

> Is the "coil Lead" you are referring to the wire from the coil to the distributer?

Yes, exactly. In my case, the wiring was the problem and not the coil. My wiring was old. Jiggling the wiring allowed me to reproduce the problem. I jiggled both the lead from the coil to the distributor and also the wires from the distributor to the spark plugs. Jiggling also let me see sparks which confimed the need to replace all my wiring.

With my electrical problem, once the engine got fully warmed up, the car sputtered and died quickly on its own without me accelerating or putting the engine under a load. I was on a level road driving about 35. The problem seemed to occur on its own as soon as the engine temperature got high enough. As I recall, the car was slightly overheating when the sputtering occurred.

In your case, it sounds like the problem can be brought on by giving it gas. Is this right?
 

Ken Ellis

Donation Time
Bill, a few thoughts...

Is this only while underway down the road, or does it sputter sitting in the driveway? Might have missed it in the thread...

The possibility of a manifold leak can be sorted out by short spritzes of starter fluid around the connections, while the engine is at a faster idle. It'll speed up momentarily if the starter fluid finds a leak. (I realize this is difficult due to the "doesn't run when warm" thing, but a few cold-warm test cycles may be needed.) Do the manifold-to-engine, manifold-to-carb, and any 'plugged' fittings on the manifold itself -- assuming it's a SII retrofit.

Do you know for sure whether the gas tanks have been cleaned/recoated inside? This could be a problem even without the evidence of black flakes in the gas. You can test by blowing compressed air back through the gas line, from the fuel pump fitting. Or, by safely substituting an auxiliary 1 gallon fuel tank directly to the pump, and then checking performance. Take a fire extinguisher.

Also, check the condition of your distributor cap and rotor. Caps can have arc traces inside that mis-direct the spark energy. Rotors can have loose rivets, or just loose brass switch pieces.

Is the distributor snug? If it's loose, it could rotate causing unpredictable timing.

Vacuum advance happening? Centrifugal advance happening? Distributer oiled at the labeled oil hole inside, by the points? Gross misadjustment of either could cause problems, though usually not as severe as this.

Points dressed and adjusted?

Electrical issues -- does the ignition switch provide full, uninterrupted 12V? While it's running in the driveway, reach behind and gently wiggle the wiring and see if it stumbles.

Verify good ground to engine block. If the ground gets flakey underway, then goofy things like this can happen.

You mentioned possible overheating... Only believe that gauge (and your fuel gauge) if your instrument voltage regulator is working correctly. Interestingly, the failure mode for that part is incorrectly high temp and fuel level, rather than none at all. (Regulator should put out 10.something volts, and it's up under the center of the dash.)

If things are truly overheating, check that there's not an air bubble in the cooling system, and that the thermostat works, and is not stuck closed. Way-too-advanced timing can cause overheating, but it'll start easily. A too-lean mixture can, too... but my gut feeling is that's not the problem here, though.

Good luck man. If all else fails, hitch up some reindeer and go about your business!
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Also check the capacitor. Anyway, always be sure your electrical system is not at fault before digging into carburation.
 

agmason54

Donation Time
Why doesn't someone post a trouble shooting guide so the same old question and the same old answers don't come up once month. It can only be one of two things. Fuel or ignition. My motto taught to me by the master Clodneilius J Clutzenbomb is this-90% of CARBRUATOR PROBLEMS ARE IGNITION!!!
Merry Christmas
Albert Mason
RIP Clayson Bowman who sold me my first Hillman
 

MKo7144769

Donation Time
Cool - a replacement coil suggests that the problem may be somewhere else. Your description makes it sound like a fuel system problem. It sounds like you are saying that the problem occurs when you put the engine under load. Is this true? And also, was your engine hot when this occurred?

> Is the "coil Lead" you are referring to the wire from the coil to the distributer?

Yes, exactly. In my case, the wiring was the problem and not the coil. My wiring was old. Jiggling the wiring allowed me to reproduce the problem. I jiggled both the lead from the coil to the distributor and also the wires from the distributor to the spark plugs. Jiggling also let me see sparks which confimed the need to replace all my wiring.

With my electrical problem, once the engine got fully warmed up, the car sputtered and died quickly on its own without me accelerating or putting the engine under a load. I was on a level road driving about 35. The problem seemed to occur on its own as soon as the engine temperature got high enough. As I recall, the car was slightly overheating when the sputtering occurred.

In your case, it sounds like the problem can be brought on by giving it gas. Is this right?

Hi Bill,
I replaced the coil to distributor wire and verifed the wires to the plugs were "OK". I noticed that the coil when I took it off is a newer coil but is still wired to the outside resistor. I unhooked the two wires on each side of the resistor and connected them together to see if corrosion or perhaps the coil inside the ceramic block was open, maybe under heat. The car still sputtered and died after a few moments with the temp hitting about 190F. So I don't think its heat related. it started right up again. The car will idle for a good 10 minutes, but eventually will begin to sputter. At this point, I hear a "sucking" sound before it sputters and dies.I am thinking of getting a new coil with an inside resistor and avoiding the outside ceramic coiled resistor. Can that be done? ck'd for moisture under the dist. cap. Dist. capacitor "looks" OK, but I think I'll change that out also, probably have to order it. The points look fine, not burned or pitted.
Thanks all for the help I'm getting - Merry Christmas to All!!
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Coils and capacitors are heat sensitive. When hot, the engine will refuse to accept a load, as if there was a fuel starvation problem. Try installing a new coil and capacitor. Better yet, used items that are known to be good. Do not trust old parts that came with the car.

It sounds as though the resistor is not the problem.

Bill
 

George Coleman

Gold Level Sponsor
Had this problem before, Check that you have a good ground like a good size cable from the chase directly to the motor, If that dose not help check the the fine wire that runs from the points plate to the body of the dist. (Contact breaker earth connection) wire. This is overlooked alot the car will run and then just die!! Hope this helps:cool:
 

beamdream

Gold Level Sponsor
IMHO the "sucking sound" just before it dies is a lack of fuel at the carb, to confirm this you will need to lift the carb top cover immediately after this occurs.

I would expect you will be confronted with an empty or low fuel level in the float bowl; from there you need to work backwards - float setting, fuel pump delivery, tank to pump feed (including filter staus), tank ventilation.
 
Top