DanR
Diamond Level Sponsor
Jay, Who's Absolutely Beautiful Alpine ? Sy Block ?
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14" wire wheels
- Thread starter Jay Laifman
- Start date
Jay, Who's Absolutely Beautiful Alpine ? Sy Block ?
Pete S.
Bronze Level Sponsor
Wow. What a beautiful car!
Jay Laifman
Donation Time
Tim R
Silver Level Sponsor
Jay, They are not bolt ons, they are normal Alpine hubs, no conversion.
Here is the receipt for a set of new Alpine Hubs and a set of 14" MGB wire wheels. Everything fits correctly and it all works well. It is possible that there is a difference of some kind between original MGB wheels and Alpine hubs and the only reason that this works is because it is all new from MWS but I don't think so.
The MWS technical department are first class and very helpful, if you have a query just call or e-mail them. I nearly bought a wider (5.5) 72 spoke wire wheel that they call a Tiger wheel (even though Tigers never had wires originally) but I decided that I preferred the 4.5 60 spoke version.
You can match up the part numbers with what is shown on the MWS website to see what we bought. In England (or anywhere in Europe) we can't get decent chrome anymore but these wheels are chromed in India (so it its done as it used to be) and the spokes are stainless. They are very high quality, well made product.
Tim R
Here is the receipt for a set of new Alpine Hubs and a set of 14" MGB wire wheels. Everything fits correctly and it all works well. It is possible that there is a difference of some kind between original MGB wheels and Alpine hubs and the only reason that this works is because it is all new from MWS but I don't think so.
The MWS technical department are first class and very helpful, if you have a query just call or e-mail them. I nearly bought a wider (5.5) 72 spoke wire wheel that they call a Tiger wheel (even though Tigers never had wires originally) but I decided that I preferred the 4.5 60 spoke version.
You can match up the part numbers with what is shown on the MWS website to see what we bought. In England (or anywhere in Europe) we can't get decent chrome anymore but these wheels are chromed in India (so it its done as it used to be) and the spokes are stainless. They are very high quality, well made product.
Tim R
My experience with MWS wasn't so positive. I called them to inquire about replacement wheels for my series V. I specificially asked the person who took my call (a lady) that I really wanted to buy 14 inch and specifically asked if the MGB wheels were compatible. She said "no" and that mounting them on an Alpine was "not recommended". With that advice, I ordered 13" Alpine wheels, painted silver grey. Getting suitable tires was a problem, but that's another story. the wheels are good quality and work well, but an old set of MGB wheels I got later make me happier.
Jay Laifman
Donation Time
I just picked up a pair of MGB 14" wheels. Here are my observations so far:
More to follow.
- As we know, the MGB wheel is 4.5" wide, and the Alpine wheel is 4" wide.
- All of that .5" is on the back side of the wheel when mounted. The front edge of the rim is at the same point relative to the fender as the Alpine rim. I don't know if that means the inside of the tire will hit on the front when the steering is all the way one way.
- Many have said that the angle of the back side of the MGB wheel is different than the Alpine one - so the MGB wheel will not match up to the Alpine hub. However, my initial measurements show them to be exactly the same. My angle measurements are not perfect yet. But, nothing is visible to the human eye when I use an adjustable angle.
- The back circle on the MGB hub (where the spokes attach) is actually smaller in diameter than the Alpine one. So it means longer spokes because of the smaller back circle, in addition to longer spokes because of the 14" rim.
- And the most critical part, the MGB hub is 1/4" longer than the Alpine. Still left is just how much thread for the spinner is left without that 1/4".
More to follow.
Last edited:
Jay Laifman
Donation Time
I was finally able to put the MGB wheel on. For the number of rotations of the spinner:
Alpine wheel: 6.5 rotations
MGB wheel: 4 rotations.
So now the question is if 4 rotations is really enough.
Alpine wheel: 6.5 rotations
MGB wheel: 4 rotations.
So now the question is if 4 rotations is really enough.
Jay Laifman
Donation Time
1
Jay Laifman
Donation Time
Yes four threads. That is what everyone here who is running the wheels are doing.
I also feel like 4 threads is not enough. But stock is only 6 threads. I don’t know if that is material.
I will try to find out. My whole point is that I know people do it ( and MG midget guys do it). So some think it is ok. I have been trying to know exactly the reason and see if it is truly valid.
I also feel like 4 threads is not enough. But stock is only 6 threads. I don’t know if that is material.
I will try to find out. My whole point is that I know people do it ( and MG midget guys do it). So some think it is ok. I have been trying to know exactly the reason and see if it is truly valid.
Jay Laifman
Donation Time
And that's the question: is 4 comparable to 6?
bulldurham
Platinum Level Sponsor
People do strange things; several years ago I put a complete MGB rear in my Series II and drove it for about 2 years w/o any problem.
I did have to modify the drive shaft and weld on tabs to mount the lower shock stud . If I recall the rear gear is 3.91 ratio and the overall width is
just slightly wider than the Alpine. which meant the small opening on the MG ,axle to Alpine spring, had to be opened just a bit to fit them together
and put the u-bolts in correct alignment. This was cheap to do and there was NO MORE GEAR NOISE .
I don't rec. to anyone but it worked well for me until I decided to do the v6 conversion. W/ a million or so MGB's sold in the US, rear ends are not rare.
I did have to modify the drive shaft and weld on tabs to mount the lower shock stud . If I recall the rear gear is 3.91 ratio and the overall width is
just slightly wider than the Alpine. which meant the small opening on the MG ,axle to Alpine spring, had to be opened just a bit to fit them together
and put the u-bolts in correct alignment. This was cheap to do and there was NO MORE GEAR NOISE .
I don't rec. to anyone but it worked well for me until I decided to do the v6 conversion. W/ a million or so MGB's sold in the US, rear ends are not rare.
Barry
Diamond Level Sponsor
I don't have a dog in this fight, just posting as a disinterested (not the same as uninterested) observer and engineer.
Four is not comparable to six and 4 threads is not comparable to 6 threads, but I don't think those are either the correct questions or answers.
IMO, the correct question is "Do 4 threads of engagement between Series Alpine wire wheel hubs and Series Alpine quick release hub nuts provide adequate retention with MGB wire wheels." Adequate to me meaning that no parts break, that the MGB wire wheels don't get loose or fall off in "normal" use and that the quick release hub nuts can be routinely removed / reinstalled without damage.
The "wire wheel retention force" is the clamping force that results from tightening a quick release hub nut on a wire wheel hub. OTBE, the clamping force of a threaded fastener is proportional to the applied torque. The number of engaged threads makes no difference with regards to the clamping force. If a Series Alpine quick release hub nut with 4 threads of engagement on Series Alpine wire wheel hubs is tightened to the same torque as a Series Alpine quick release hub nut with 6 threads of engagement on Series Alpine wire wheel hubs, then the resultant clamping force should be the same.
The obvious follow-on questions are:
All of this is JMO and I admit to having as many questions as answers.
Four is not comparable to six and 4 threads is not comparable to 6 threads, but I don't think those are either the correct questions or answers.
IMO, the correct question is "Do 4 threads of engagement between Series Alpine wire wheel hubs and Series Alpine quick release hub nuts provide adequate retention with MGB wire wheels." Adequate to me meaning that no parts break, that the MGB wire wheels don't get loose or fall off in "normal" use and that the quick release hub nuts can be routinely removed / reinstalled without damage.
The "wire wheel retention force" is the clamping force that results from tightening a quick release hub nut on a wire wheel hub. OTBE, the clamping force of a threaded fastener is proportional to the applied torque. The number of engaged threads makes no difference with regards to the clamping force. If a Series Alpine quick release hub nut with 4 threads of engagement on Series Alpine wire wheel hubs is tightened to the same torque as a Series Alpine quick release hub nut with 6 threads of engagement on Series Alpine wire wheel hubs, then the resultant clamping force should be the same.
The obvious follow-on questions are:
What is the correct torque value for a Series Alpine quick release hub nut on a Series Alpine wire wheel hub with a Series Alpine wire wheel?
Note that "a couple of good whacks with a 4 lb. copper hammer" is not a torque value.
I have seen an online reference to 220 lb.-ft., but the source of that information was not provided.
I have seen an online reference to 220 lb.-ft., but the source of that information was not provided.
Can a Series Alpine quick release hub nut with 4 threads of engagement on a Series Alpine wire wheel hub with MGB wire wheels be tightened to the correct torque value for a Series Alpine quick release hub nut on a Series Alpine wire wheel hub?
A classic case of "try it and see what happens." I would feel better if the "four thread" setup could be repeatedly tightened to twice the normal torque value and then loosened with no visible damage. I have no idea what torque value will result in damage to the wire wheel center. A good use for a wire wheel with worn out splines.
A classic case of "try it and see what happens." I would feel better if the "four thread" setup could be repeatedly tightened to twice the normal torque value and then loosened with no visible damage. I have no idea what torque value will result in damage to the wire wheel center. A good use for a wire wheel with worn out splines.
Is a Series Alpine quick release hub nut with 4 threads of engagement on a Series Alpine wire wheel hub tightened to the correct Series Alpine torque value a durable combination with MGB wire wheels?
Will the quick release hub nut come loose? Will the engaged threads fail? Will the Series Alpine wire wheel hub fail? Another case of "try it and see what happens." Think I would "try it and see" in an abandoned shopping mall parking lot or equivalent.
The answers do not matter much for a trailer queen, but are uber important for a car that is actually driven.
The answers do not matter much for a trailer queen, but are uber important for a car that is actually driven.
All of this is JMO and I admit to having as many questions as answers.
Jay Laifman
Donation Time
Great thoughts Barry. But that's because they go to directly is 4 comparable to 6. That's exactly what I meant. Are they comparable for the requirements needed. So do they allow for comparable torque?
And note that I'm not the first. There are lots of folks out there running with these and MWS will specifically sell the MGB wheel for Alpine owners and tell the it's good. They are actually driven. No one has reported problems. But I don't think that is enough.
In addition getting enough torque, I'm worried about it retaining torque. Could it lose torque because (1) there isn't enough friction holding the spinner in place or (2) the smaller depth of threads means there can be more flexing and thus causing loosening.
I do note that the surface area of 4 rotations on one nut is easily enough measured. And so is the surface area of a small lug nut (0f which there are four on a wheel). My guess is that 4 rotations of one spinner has more surface area than four full lug nuts.
I have NO IDEA the answer to these questions. I have NO IDEA if they are the right questions. All I know is I would like to run the 14" wires wheels, but I won't do it unless I get more comfort.
And note that I'm not the first. There are lots of folks out there running with these and MWS will specifically sell the MGB wheel for Alpine owners and tell the it's good. They are actually driven. No one has reported problems. But I don't think that is enough.
In addition getting enough torque, I'm worried about it retaining torque. Could it lose torque because (1) there isn't enough friction holding the spinner in place or (2) the smaller depth of threads means there can be more flexing and thus causing loosening.
I do note that the surface area of 4 rotations on one nut is easily enough measured. And so is the surface area of a small lug nut (0f which there are four on a wheel). My guess is that 4 rotations of one spinner has more surface area than four full lug nuts.
I have NO IDEA the answer to these questions. I have NO IDEA if they are the right questions. All I know is I would like to run the 14" wires wheels, but I won't do it unless I get more comfort.
How hard would it be to mill a couple of mm off the top of the MG wheel to get the two turns back? Or would that prevent the hub nut from properly engaging with the wheel?