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Series 2 running hot

Dan Cooper

Gold Level Sponsor
Gents--

My Alpine seems to be running hot. Recored radiator, new hoses, new thermostat. No leaks, seems full. It has an overflow tank. New temp gauge sender. Gauge slowly climbs to 195 and I shut it off.

It has the vizard combustion chamber, a downdraft weber. A cam from Delta. I went up on the idles and mains, and the plugs look a bit fat if anything. The head was tanked when I had it done, only 500 miles ago or so.

I installed a 10 inch blower fan this week. Set it to come on at 175. It works, blows the correct direction. Still runs hot, at least indicated.

Bad gauge ? Blocked passages ? Thoughts ?IMG_2938.jpeg
 

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
What is the two pieces on top and bottom with the multiple holes for? Mounting the electric fan?

Were they there before the electric fan?

They could have some blockage effect.

Have your gauge checked.

Do you have a thermo gun? Try that for an idea on the temperature reading.
 

RootesRooter

Donation Time
What was the maximum temperature it was running before the new fan and thermostat? What temperature is the new thermostat? Does the temp go above 195? You might try a laser thermometer to verify. If it doesn't go above 195, I'd drive it normally but keep an eye out for things like slow coolant leakage (head gasket).
 

Dan Cooper

Gold Level Sponsor
1) the aluminium plates are to mount the fan.
2) They were not there previously.
3) Yes they could block airflow but it gets hot idling in the barn, with the fan running.
4) I will either get a thermo gun or a meat gauge and check the temp at the radiator tomorrow.
5) Max temp before the fan was getting towards the peg.
6) the new thermostat is 180. I swopped out the 165 that was in there. I could swop it back but it should be wide open before the coolant gets to 195.

I'll report back tomorrow.
 

husky drvr

Platinum Level Sponsor
Thoughts ?

Dan C.,

What temp is your thermostat rated? I'm not sure 195* for initial opening from cold would surprise me for a new 180* thermostat. You might try running past 195* to see if temp starts dropping ~ 200*. Even 205* isn't overheated, just starting to be concerning for extended periods. One last thermostat issue is they can be installed upside down, which delays initial opening because the sensing bulb isn't in the hot water flow.

Another possibility which seems to pop up with the early series is the rad cap. The early series need a cap with a deeper plunger sealing point. The usual shorter caps fit but can't seal.

I will also agree with DanR about your mounts being a air restriction. If you did an "artistic" trim using the edges of your holes, I don't think you would loose any strength for your mount but gain significant airflow.

Here is a link to an article (one of a series) on TE/AE website. You might gather some more thoughts about Alpine cooling there.

https://www.teae.org/cooling-the-sunbeam-tiger/

Hope this helps,
 

Dan Cooper

Gold Level Sponsor
OK sounds like I should swop the 165 thermostat back in. I got the radiator cap from Napa so I will ring Sunbeam Specialties and check out whether I have the right reach. I did a bunch of trimming on the mount plates but I likely can do some more. Thanks for the feedback
 

husky drvr

Platinum Level Sponsor
the 165 thermostat back in.

Dan,

On the thermostat, I wasn't trying to imply your 180* unit is defective. It's more a matter of it being a new, analog, mechanical part that needs a bit of break-in. New thermostats are known to be a bit slow in their operation until they have some hours of use.

If you change it out, you could then test it on a stove with a pot of water and observe at what temp it starts opening and how long it takes to fully open.

The 195* reading temperature is not too hot for the engine, even with only water(boiling point ~210*) and no pressure from the radiator cap at sea level, particularly on a cold start. Heat damage occurs when the coolant boils and no longer removes heat from the hot spots.

A 50/50% Ethylene Glycol coolant mixture boils ~ 220* at sea level and no pressurization. Every PSI. of pressurization would add ~ 3* to the boiling point. The sII cap is normally a 4 PSI. cap, I believe, for another 12* of B.P. increase. If everything is working properly, you aren't near the boiling point.

Just a few rambling thoughts,
 
Last edited:

alpine_64

Donation Time
1) the aluminium plates are to mount the fan.
2) They were not there previously.
3) Yes they could block airflow but it gets hot idling in the barn, with the fan running.
4) I will either get a thermo gun or a meat gauge and check the temp at the radiator tomorrow.
5) Max temp before the fan was getting towards the peg.
6) the new thermostat is 180. I swopped out the 165 that was in there. I could swop it back but it should be wide open before the coolant gets to 195.

I'll report back tomorrow.

We have covered this on the site many times, before adding fans, recoring radiators etc
.. Confirm what/ if there is an issue.. See point 4 first.
1.)
The fan mounts are overkill and while new will certainly cause a large restriction of air DIRECTLY in front of the radiator. Electric fans should only be needed for prolonged periods of idle in warm temperature.

2.)the fan only needs baaic mounts amd tabs.. Smaller the better.

3.)as above.

4.) The first step should be to confirm if the car is overheating.
Does the car spit water out the overflow?
Using an infrared thermometer take a reading at the temp sender, bottom and top radiator outlet and compare vs gauge.
If the temp matches the gauge or is +/-.
If the car is hot:
Does the radiator cap seat correctly?
Is the cap spring ok?
Thermostat working coreectly?
Heater core open blocked?
Hose at back of head connected?

5.) Confirm if gauge and temp sender are correct.

6.) Thermostat should be checked as above.

Does the fan blow air the correct direction? Is it spinning backward even if blades are facing correct way ( wired backward)

You said the plugs show a slightly rich mixture so we can count out lean mixture causing heat or mis timed.

You say is a new head, radoator thermostat etc...did you just do top end build? A nee bottom end build will run a bit hotter during break in.

Did you flush the block when head was off?
 

Toyanvil

Gold Level Sponsor
This is what I did to mount my fan. P.S my car is not stock.
RIMG0002-XL.jpg
 

Mike O'D

Gold Level Sponsor
It doesn't matter what temperature thermostat you are running - if it's actually getting to 195 deg. either the 165 or 180 would be fully open.
 

Dan Cooper

Gold Level Sponsor
that's a lovely install for your fan.

1) sender is what Sunbeam Specialties sold me.
2) gauge is original
3) infrared temp gauge on the way to check dash gauge accuracy. Arrives Tuesday.
4) agreed on thermostat. However I thought I better check orientation. The side that is up in the attached photo also points to the sky when installed ?
5) all hoses connected
6) heater worked previously, glycol in the hoses.
7) I flushed the motor when I got it (replacement) prior to the head work. Yes the valves were done but I will flush again today. Bottom end is original but low mileage and good oil pressure.
8) no detonation, runs well. So I don't think the timing is drastically off. I will time it with a light as an additional check.
 

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husky drvr

Platinum Level Sponsor
sender is what Sunbeam Specialties sold me

Dan,

Just out of curiosity, where is your temp sender mounted?

Please show a picture of how the rest of the engine is plumbed, in the rear.

The usual placement for the temp sender is where the square headed brass plug is in your picture.

Your picture of the thermostat is the correct position. Is the top of the flange stamped "to radiator" or similar?
 

Dan Cooper

Gold Level Sponsor
In the photo above the thermostat housing is to the left, with the black remains of the gasket. The header tank bolts on top
 

Dan Cooper

Gold Level Sponsor
the sender is in a pipe from the head, at the firewall. Seems like a bodge to me. I ran the car with water and the 160 thermostat as a pre-flush. It went to 185, when the fan came on, and then sat there. So progress it seems. I'll drive it later and report back.
 

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RootesRooter

Donation Time
5) Max temp before the fan was getting towards the peg.

Peg, as in.....250F?

What was it like before all the work was done 500 miles ago?
 

Toyanvil

Gold Level Sponsor
This maybe to late, but I always drill two 1/8 holes in the flange of the thermostat before I install it. I am old school, I know.
 

Dan Cooper

Gold Level Sponsor
Too late the thermostat is back in.
Pegged as in I shut it off and waited for it to cool down when it hit 230, the max on the gauge.
It got hot on extended drives with the stock low mileage motor I installed 4 years ago.

I'll drive it tomorrow and report back.
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
Thr location of your temp sender is a known hot spot on the motors...the back cooling pasages in the block are often blocked with casting sand which creates hotter temos in the rear cylinder combustion chambers.

When you get the infrared aim it at the brass plug in the thermo housing and see the temp.

Your upside... You may have identified your rear cooling passages in the block are restricted
 

Dan Cooper

Gold Level Sponsor
How do I unblock the passages ? Pull the head and run a brass brush down them ? I am running a chemical flush now.
 
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