Series V Right Rear Wire Wheel Hub

[absunbeam]

Does anyone have a "good serviceable" Series V hub Right Hand Rear for a wire wheel? The thread would be a LH thread for the spinner. Hubs are stamped on the inside towards the axle.
Al

 

[Tim R]

If you can't get a second hand one Motor Wheel Services (MWS in the U.K.) sell brand new hubs.

Tim R

 

[absunbeam]

Thanks Tim!

 

[mikephillips]

If you search the forum you can find some threads talking about matching used hubs and wheels as well as hubs/wheels where one is new and the other used. I won't go into the whole thing here, short answer is you should read the information first to make an informed purchase as it can be complicated dependent on the condition of the hub and wheel.

 

[absunbeam]

Thanks Mike-Was reading past entries on wire wheel hubs, especially yours from 3 yrs ago. The right rear seems to be the worst for wear because it’s the drive side. Had a big issue with getting the wheel off, suspected it was from sitting for 25 yrs but may have been from being worn. Had to cut the spokes off & split wheel to get it off, it has the sharp edges which shows sever wear. The SV rear axles seems to be different from the S1-SIV, so that narrows down the selection. How can you tell when the wire wheels are at the end of their life?
Al

 

[husky drvr]

How can you tell when the wire wheels are at the end of their life?

Al,

A link to a previous discussion and then Mike's tech session on YT.

Hope this helps,

https://forum.sunbeamalpine.org/index.php?posts/179515/

 

[Tim R]

When we fitted brand new hubs and wires to our Series IV we marked every wheel and hub with different combinations of little white paint dots. This means that we always refit the same wheel to the same hub AND always slide the wheel splines over exactly the same hub splines. I have never read anyone saying we should do this but it seems to makes sense as we do it with many other mechanical components that wear together.
Tim R

 

[absunbeam]

What’s the difference between S1-S4 and S5 wire hubs or axles?
AL

 

[Tim R]

As far as I am aware the differences are just with the rear bearings Series I-IV being different from Series V. I have not seen hubs listed as being for different Series but I have only ever had Series IV &V cars so there may be differences that I am unaware of.

Tim R

 

[absunbeam]

So would that mean that rear hubs fit from S1-SV if the only difference is the bearing size?

Al

 

[mikephillips]

The series I-IV hubs are different from the V hubs in the back. The taper of the axle is slightly smaller on the earlier hubs so they won't fit all the way down on the later axle. The out diameter is also slightly smaller so the seal won't seat snugly against the. I have the measurements around here somewhere, I'll see if I can dig them up. You can also use the measurements from the bolt on hubs where they go on the axle, they're the same. Wheels themselves are the same across all series.

As for wear on the wheels, they're harder to tell since you can't see the splines quite like the hubs. But they shouldn't feel sharp of you reach inside. And if you look with a light they may seem "short". Best advice is to always swap them as pairs, either both new or both from the same spot on the same car when used.

As noted above, keep them as pairs and only rotate them every couple hundred miles or so, always with no skipping to minimize differences in wear patterns. Most will never do this so my advice has always tended to be just never rotate them. Most of our cars aren't going to get enough use anyway for slightly increased tire wear to be an issue before age starts to become one.

 

[Barry]

The series I-IV hubs are different from the V hubs in the back. The taper of the axle is slightly smaller on the earlier hubs so they won't fit all the way down on the later axle. The out diameter is also slightly smaller so the seal won't seat snugly against the. I have the measurements around here somewhere, I'll see if I can dig them up. You can also use the measurements from the bolt on hubs where they go on the axle, they're the same. Wheels themselves are the same across all series.

As for wear on the wheels, they're harder to tell since you can't see the splines quite like the hubs. But they shouldn't feel sharp of you reach inside. And if you look with a light they may seem "short". Best advice is to always swap them as pairs, either both new or both from the same spot on the same car when used.

As noted above, keep them as pairs and only rotate them every couple hundred miles or so, always with no skipping to minimize differences in wear patterns. Most will never do this so my advice has always tended to be just never rotate them. Most of our cars aren't going to get enough use anyway for slightly increased tire wear to be an issue before age starts to become one.

The WSM's clearly indicate otherwise.

Per WSM-124 for S-I through S-IV:

WHEELS AND TYRES (Alpine)

Road wheels -- Type Pressed steel disk or wire
-- Size 4J x 13


​

Per WSM-145 for S-V:

WHEELS AND TYRES

Wheel -- type Disc or (*wire Alpine only)
-- size 13 x 4-1/2​

 

[absunbeam]

The series I-IV hubs are different from the V hubs in the back. The taper of the axle is slightly smaller on the earlier hubs so they won't fit all the way down on the later axle. The out diameter is also slightly smaller so the seal won't seat snugly against the. I have the measurements around here somewhere, I'll see if I can dig them up. You can also use the measurements from the bolt on hubs where they go on the axle, they're the same. Wheels themselves are the same across all series.

Would that effect the rear solid hub fit if the taper size is different on the SV?

 

[husky drvr]

The WSM's clearly indicate otherwise.

Per WSM-124 for S-I through S-IV:

WHEELS AND TYRES (Alpine)

Road wheels -- Type Pressed steel disk or wire
-- Size 4J x 13​

Barry,

WSM 124 also states on the page opposite the index page:

 

[studmobile]

I am going to make a counter argument about always replacing the hubs if you replace the wheels. If the hubs appear good, with the small triangles and without the "wave" from wear, I feel new wheels are a real improvement over worn. I've talked with the folks at Hendrix Wire Wheel here in NC, and they don't necessarily feel hubs need to be replaced with the new wheels. They feel you can tell a significant wear mismatch between wheel and hub by how easily the wheel slides on.
My real issue is that the rear hubs are a bear to remove and replace, as evidenced by the multiple threads and suggesti0ns for pulling tools. Most of us don't have easy access to the appropriate puller, so the job doesn't get done. If the only way to get new wheels is to get new hubs, I think there will be many worn wheels out there. I am amazed that new hubs are available to buy now. So I agree that the ideal is to replace both, but this may be an example of the perfect being the enemy of the good. Perhaps the more important issue is getting them appropriately tightened, and checking them periodically. Just MHO, David

 

[Barry]

Barry,

WSM 124 also states on the page opposite the index page:


View attachment 25601View attachment 25601

Don,

Do you have anything to indicate that the wheel width information shown in the WSM's is wrong or that Rootes changed the wheel width specifications shown in the WSM's?

 

[mikephillips]

So for a couple things. The early series I-IV opening in the hub is slightly smaller diameter as the axle at that point is a couple millimeters diameter smaller. So a late hub would go on too far onto an early axle and an early hub would not seat far enough on a late axle for the nut to go all the way on.

Early and late wheel sizes. As far as that is concerned, for wire wheels it seems that all you'll be able to get is the 13 inch sized to the midget and not specific to the Alpine, which I'm told had a slightly shorter hub, so the wheel nut on new wheel is about half a turn less than original. Have to admit when I started all this many years ago I didn't measure so I cannot absolutely verify that.

As for replacement or not, it depends a lot on the amount of wear. If the hub splines are still like squared off equilateral triangles when viewed from the end and the tops are not noticeably sharp, you can probably get away with reusing them since most of us are not aggressively racing or such. But the more they wear and bend the more dangerous they can be. I kept one off my car that in an emergency stop they held for a couple seconds, then folded over and the wheel basically ground them flat, going from 4 wheel to two wheel brakes. Fortunately I was able to steer off onto the berm to avoid damage or injury, but that was a serious lesson in the shortcomings of worn components in unexpected circumstances.

 

[65sunbeam]

Here are photos of the rear hubs and measurements.

 

[husky drvr]

I don't know if this is useful info, I measured the mid points of a coarse spline early axle and a sV axle. The hubs are on the axles so no measurements on those. My measurements are only close due to my instrument's limitations.

Early axle ~ 1 1/8 inch dia. (a bit less than 29 mm.)

sV axle ~ 1 3/16 inch dia. (about 30 1/2 mm.)

Hope this helps,

 

[husky drvr]

Don,

Do you have anything to indicate that the wheel width information shown in the WSM's is wrong or that Rootes changed the wheel width specifications shown in the WSM's?

Barry,

If you agree the Parts Manual in the site tech section covers all Series Alpines, then please note there are ONLY three part numbers for standard wheels listed. An interim design was superseded by the final number which followed to the end of production. You'll note the final number is listed as having started in production with B9107291 in the week of 7-17-61. There is no change of wheels from then to the end of production.

In WSM 124, General Data on the same page as your Alpine reference, the Rapier information for wheels and tires includes a note that the Rapier IV production changed wheel diameter and width to 4.5J x 13 wheels. The Rapier IV started production in 1963. Why would a relatively small manufacturer like Rootes buy and stock two virtually identical, large, hard to store parts? Economies of scale and inventory control should indicate a change to the single, better part.

We both know the WSM's have other inconsistencies. I propose the omission of a wheel change datum is probably a printers error for the later WSM printings.

If someone has access to a Rapier parts manual, it would be appreciated if they checked the part number for the Rapier IV road wheel to see if it does match one of the Alpine numbers.

The wheel pictures are of a wheel off of an Alpine, not a Rapier.

Hope this helps,