Fram Oil Filter

[Barry]

Jarrid,

You are a technical guy and ought to appreciate the question about "verifiable data". I this case, that would mean credible drainback measurements comparing Fram, Wix, Purolator and Napa filters.

Not disagreeing with your observation / opinion, just asking if there is verifiable data to support the blanket statement that Fram filters have inadequate drainback valves.

 

[65beam]

oil filter

john,

i have been selling oil filters on the wholesale level for many years. i have found over that period that the auto companies may put them out for bid and buy from the lowest bidder to control production cost. the original filters may not have had the fram logo or numbers on them. in other words,they're a generic filter,at the lowest cost. it's possible that the filters coming out of the factory at times may not have been made by fram . i would suggest you go to swap meets and see what you can find.
the later parts book showing all series of alpines shows the fram filter not supplied. the filter on my wife's series 5 is a chrysler/rootes filter supplied by dealers for alpines. it has the c/r logo and part number along with the blue color. i have quite a few of them that i bought from your side of the pond many years ago plus some that i got when i bought a lot of dealer stock in the seventies. as i said earlier,make your rounds of the swap meets.

 

[65beam]

oil filters

twenty years ago fram was making their filters with a cardboard base plate and on most of their filters the only form of anti drain back was the spring at the top. in my days selling valvoline i carried a filter cutter to show a potential customer the difference. wix and champ used a metal base plate and many had an actual valve inside them to hold oil in the filter when the motor was shut down and oil pressure went away. minimum specs for filters and also the micron size of the paper have changed over the years along with a shorter recommended oil drain period so i don't bother with this anymore since price is the name of the game to installers. i still specify no fram when i have my GM's serviced.

 

[RootesRacer]

Jarrid,

You are a technical guy and ought to appreciate the question about "verifiable data". I this case, that would mean credible drainback measurements comparing Fram, Wix, Purolator and Napa filters.

Not disagreeing with your observation / opinion, just asking if there is verifiable data to support the blanket statement that Fram filters have inadequate drainback valves.

Barry,

None of us cared enough to quantify the data, we have found other varieties of filters that didnt leave the engine knocking due to zero oil pressure on startup and we moved on. Much better to find a functional alternative than to endure the test showing how bad the basic filter is?

It seems that though fram is a very popular and perceived leader in oil filters, they just dont have a decent anti drainback mechanism in the filter.

 

[65beam]

oil filter

after all this discussion,i think john is still looking for an original filter to install on his car in order to duplicate what was on it when it rolled out the factory door.

 

[Rodewaryer]

FYI John, the K&N substitute for the PH16 is the HP-2004, I have actually been using those on the Sunbeam, my previous Saab 99/900's, the Lotus and my Discovery. Good filters and though I don't know the specs on them compared to the Fram I know them to be reputable and likely superior to the Fram. The reason I suggest them is that they have the nut on the filter as your picture shows. The downside is that they are supplied white, however I doubt that would stop anyone that wanted their filter a certain colour.

 

[puff4]

FYI John, the K&N substitute for the PH16 is the HP-2004...

Nice find! Looks the exact thing for an original replacement.

 

[Gordon Holsinger]

Well, for what it's worth... I have consulted my 1985 Fram Master Catalog and the Rootes parts manual and discovered the following (there is a Rootes Part Number -to- Fram cross reference in the Fram book):

Rootes # -- Fram # -- Description

K-24477 -- CH820PL -- filter element (for the earlier canister filters)

5041315 -- PH16 -- full-flow cartridge-type filter (disposable)​

And the Sunbeam parts book *does* specify using the FRAM element, and notes this was used on "SIII from B9204718 S/Top, B9203887 G.T. and B9250157 C.K.D. S/Africa and Series IV".

The Fram catalog also states that the PH16 does have an anti-drainback valve.

The only other possible filter in the Fram catalog that has a nut on the end of it, like the one you pictured, is PH28A. The differences between the two are:

PH16 -- relief valve setting 8-10 psi -- OD= 3 5/8" -- Height= 3 11/16"
PH28A -- relief valve setting 7-9 psi -- OD= 3" -- Height= 4 13/16" (n/nut)

The PH28A is listed as fitting John Deere AM-34770; Kohler 277233; Onan 122A323, 122B323, 1220323; Tennant 56845.

FWIW, the entire Rootes-to-Fram filter part number conversion table is as follows:

Rootes # -- Fram #
1228080 -- PH8A
5038483 -- CA641PL
5041315 -- PH16 (later Alpine/Rapier oil filter)
5042621 -- PH8A
6100448 -- PH8A (Tiger oil filter)
7011192 -- CH2807 (Imp oil filter)
K-22100 -- CH822PL
K-22150 -- CH822PL
K-23855 -- CH820PL (early Alpine/Rapier oil filter)
K-33052 -- CH836PL1
P-116243 -- PS826

I was told years ago by a knowledgeable Beam owner that is he best filters were Wix or Hastings!

 

[BEpine]

I use a Ford Motorcraft FL-820S . Has a anti -drain back valve so the oil stays in the filter so no dry starts.

 

[puff4]

I use K&N. Not only is it a good filter, and has a proper anti-drain-back valve, it's also a dead ringer for the filter originally supplied by Rootes - it has the hexagonal nut on the top, like the original, for removal. Just paint it the proper color of blue, slap a sticker on it (as below) and you're good to go!

Here's the label I created...



And here's one on the motor I built...

 

[hartmandm]

Kevin,

Love it. I've been painting my K&N 2004 filters black and not using a label. I figured I was good to go by doing that. I guess not. What is the "proper" blue color - some traditional Chrysler blue?

And would you mind sharing the original image file for the label? Looks like there might be some edge artifacts from a snippet/crop.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[nsbluenose]

Puff4,
You have a adjustable OPV. Have you test run this engine to see how the valve is working? What pressures are you getting when hot; for idle, for 3500 rpms?

 

[BEpine]

Puff4,
When you installed your aluminum timing cover, did you need to sand some rubber off the timing chain tensioner? When I installed mine I needed a bar clamp to pull it over to align the bolts and center the damper in the seal. I have since removed the cover and sanded down the rubber tensioner so there is slight pressure on the chain and now everything lines up without having to use a bar clamp.

 

[puff4]

Kevin,

Love it. I've been painting my K&N 2004 filters black and not using a label. I figured I was good to go by doing that. I guess not. What is the "proper" blue color - some traditional Chrysler blue?

And would you mind sharing the original image file for the label? Looks like there might be some edge artifacts from a snippet/crop.

Thanks,
Mike

Sure. Here's a whole sheet of labels... go nuts! But it looks like the artifact is on all the labels I made. I never noticed it on the prints, though, since they come out smaller than the one on this page. You may not notice it either once you print them - after all, you have to cut them out and also round the corners to make them as original. Give it a go. (Oh, and these labels should print at the proper factory label size if you use 8.5 x 11 paper)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1r9cwaJAR1JCbbMR0LxVqRhn4ERI_MFFw/view?usp=sharing

As to the colour, I use Chrysler engine blue. Seemed appropriate! (and I am pretty sure that really was the actual colour of them, too.)

https://www.amazon.com/Dupli-Color-EDE163107-Ceramic-Chrysler-Engine/dp/B003TPXDD4

Here's another photo of the completed motor, with OD gearbox installed and ready to pop into the car...

Puff4,
You have a adjustable OPV. Have you test run this engine to see how the valve is working? What pressures are you getting when hot; for idle, for 3500 rpms?

Yep. I made that valve myself. I've put about 5,000 miles on that engine - it's the one in my own Alpine. When the engine is hot I get about 45-50 pounds at road speed, and at idle it never drops below 20, even when in hot traffic. Having said that, I also blueprinted that motor to extremely tight tolerances - closer than the factory specs - so it's more like a Japanese motor than an English one in that regard. For example, I installed the main and rod bearings in their caps, measured them very accurately, and then cut and polished the crank to less than 0.001" clearance on each journal. I was frankly amazed at how 'off' the bearing shells were to what they said on the box... and how much variance there was from shell to shell. And these were NOS Vandervells, too... allegedly those are the 'good stuff'. Machining the crank to the shells compensated for those differences. As such, oil doesn't dump out of the bearings as readily.

Puff4,
When you installed your aluminum timing cover, did you need to sand some rubber off the timing chain tensioner? When I installed mine I needed a bar clamp to pull it over to align the bolts and center the damper in the seal. I have since removed the cover and sanded down the rubber tensioner so there is slight pressure on the chain and now everything lines up without having to use a bar clamp.

No, I didn't. But then mine was the prototype for these covers and had extra machining done inside. He made the early ones too thick and corrected that in later production - you probably have an early one. Mine centered easily - photo of mine below. Note the non-anodized interior... that was machining to make them thinner.

The guy who makes them lives near here, and when he first came out with them I went up to see him... nice bloke. We made a deal... I gave him an old, well-used Judson supercharger and he gave me his first cover. Good trade!

I also installed the harmonic damper (timing pulley) he makes as well, as my original one had the rubber failing and had slipped a wee bit. I only noticed it when balancing the rotating components - the pulley was wobbling slightly as a result of the outer ring having slipped against the inner one, as they will all do eventually. I would bet good money that every existing original Alpine damper is no good anymore for just this reason... the rubber has gone past it's useful life. It's really fun when they slip such that the timing marks move... that leads to some devilishly infuriating tuning problems.

https://www.joesrestorationrescue.com/products/sunbeam/sunbeam-alpine-timing-pulley.php

(Yes, I know the above link will fail with a certificate error - just hit 'advanced' or ‘show details” and hit 'go to the page anyway'... it's perfectly safe... his certificate is just out of date.)

 

[BEpine]

Puff4,
Thanks, I too bought his harmonic damper. Compared to the original cover, it does look like there is more material where the tensioner is.

 

[puff4]

Puff4,
Thanks, I too bought his harmonic damper. Compared to the original cover, it does look like there is more material where the tensioner is.

I updated my posting to show the cover... check it out.

 

[Gordon Holsinger]

Kevin,

Love it. I've been painting my K&N 2004 filters black and not using a label. I figured I was good to go by doing that. I guess not. What is the "proper" blue color - some traditional Chrysler blue?

And would you mind sharing the original image file for the label? Looks like there might be some edge artifacts from a snippet/crop.

Thanks,
Mike

Chrysler corporate blue is available in many auto parts stores as engine paint!

 

[puff4]

So, I came across this photo by happenstance the other day and it just happens to show some Chrysler oil filters for an Alpine. Take from it what you will.