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The Future of Gas Powered Cars for Hobbyists

mikephillips

Donation Time
One thing they need to do, the manufacturers or those in charge, is figure out a common charging design that everyone will use since now there are differences. Imaging needing to find a Ford charging station and all you run across round you are Tesla or GM or such. And sorry, the plug may not fit or the charging rate won't work. They worked it out for gas decades ago, so now sit down and decide on how to share component designs for electrical interfaces.
 

husky drvr

Platinum Level Sponsor
One thing they need to do, the manufacturers or those in charge, is figure out a common charging design that everyone will use since now there are differences. Imaging needing to find a Ford charging station and all you run across round you are Tesla or GM or such. And sorry, the plug may not fit or the charging rate won't work. They worked it out for gas decades ago, so now sit down and decide on how to share component designs for electrical interfaces.

Mike,

I think the EU passed legislation to require all EV manufacturers to use the same charge plugs. Doubt it will happen here until we do the same.

Don
 

husky drvr

Platinum Level Sponsor
Strange they did not include cost of vehicle maintenance/repair.Bill

I gathered it was a study comparing the fueling differences, not long term ownership costs.

With the inclusion of this page on what wasn't taken into consideration, it would seem all general and long term maintenance is ignored for both types of vehicles.

Comparison: Real World Cost of Driving EVs and ICE Vehicles
Anderson Economic Group, LLC Unpacking the Cost of EV Charging 21

SEPARATING DIRECT
MONETARY COSTS
FROM IMPLICIT TIME
COSTS
This report separates implicit time costs from direct monetary costs.
Direct monetary costs are explicit, and can be objectively measured.
Time costs are inherently subjective, and can only be implicitly
estimated. We include the latter as a gauge for the reader, but do not add
time cost estimates to the direct monetary costs.

FUELING COSTS NOT
ITEMIZED IN THIS
REPORT
While this analysis properly accounts for four categories of direct
monetary costs, and does so for both EVs and ICE vehicles, there are a
handful of known costs that we do not itemize or include, such as:
1. Phantom Drain. Electric vehicles and ICE vehicles require a certain
amount of electric power while they are not being actively driven. We
ignore this in our analysis.
2. Electrical Power Usage While Charging. It is common for EV drivers
to use vehicle features while at a commercial charger. This use
includes lights, heater or air conditioner, electric seats (including any
heating or cooling), and music or an infotainment system. In addition,
EVs typically use internal systems to monitor the charging process.
For EV drivers, the cost of use while fueling is much higher than for
ICE vehicles. For safety reasons, gasoline-powered cars must be
turned off while refueling, and many stations require a person to be
outside the vehicle in view of the pump while it is operating. More-
over, the very short time required to fill a gasoline tank means that
any usage during that time is small.
We ignore this category of costs.
3. Battery Degradation. All vehicles degrade over time. Battery-electric
vehicles have a primary system that predictably degrades, namely the
battery.
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
it would seem all general and long term maintenance is ignored for both types of vehicles.

Which forces me to believe the "studies" were intentionally biased against EV's.

Bill
 

Barry

Diamond Level Sponsor
I have yet to see a study or analysis that was not biased in some way, most commonly by the funding process. Having said that, I fail to see how not including maintenance costs for both categories supports a conclusion of bias in either direction.
 

mikephillips

Donation Time
I also saw the other day that it is said the faster the charge is, the battery life can be noticeable decreased. True?? Don't know for certain myself as I have no experience with it or training in the technology, but would hate to trade charging in the time to fuel with gas for getting new batteries much sooner.
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
I have yet to see a study or analysis that was not biased in some way, most commonly by the funding process. Having said that, I fail to see how not including maintenance costs for both categories supports a conclusion of bias in either direction.
Because the supporters of EV's claim lower lifetime lower cost of ownership, not necessarily lower cost of fuel. I would love to see how Anderson would cost out waiting 3 hours in the dealers salesroom while getting the dealers $125 oil change and free safety inspection. And when Anderson gets into increased tax cost, that is cost of ownership, as it is a fixed cost.

Bill
 

husky drvr

Platinum Level Sponsor
Bill,

Page 4 of the PDF at the bottom of page containing :

upload_2021-10-25_16-19-18.png

This report is not, nor is it intended to be, a long term ownership study. Its more a data point in an upcoming series of studies, trying to estimate how fast the turnover to EV's will proceed, based on comparative fueling costs.

Don
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Don, I say the cost of fueling is not an important ownership factor with the American car buying public. If it was, there would be a hell of a lot few pickups on the road. Especially among those who use the F150 as the family wheels. So why would fuel cost be be an important factor in the speed of the crossover? Especially when it seems no one buys an EV to save on fuel cost. Save the planet? Yes. Save on long term cost of ownership? Yes. Superior performance? Yes.

In short, I don't believe any of their propaganda.
Bill
 
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Greggers

SAOCA Vice President
Platinum Level Sponsor
As an actual owner of an EV as a daily driver, I feel compelled to weigh in.

I have a few quibbles with the report. It feels biased from word one. But that’s not important right now.

I was lucky enough to buy when Tesla was still offering unlimited charging. When using Tesla superchargers, it costs me nothing. So as an anecdotal example, a couple of years ago, I made a 2000 mile round trip for the holidays, and it cost me $0 (not counting wear and tear (and not counting the cost of food delivery (but not the cost of the food which I would’ve had to buy anyway) at one of my stops, as I didn’t know the area well enough to find a place to eat before charging. And this happened to be one of very few charging stations with no food mere steps away)). What would that 2000 mile trip have cost in an all wheel drive SUV? Big con to this trip is that a journey that normally takes me 12 hours took 16 hours. Yes, there’s value and opportunity cost in those 4 hours. In my case, it’s 4 hours I didn’t have to spend with my in-laws – a win-win.

But as for that daily driving I mentioned, my time invested in charging at home is not the 4.5 hours a month quoted. It’s a whole lot closer to 4.5 minutes per month (which would be generous). There’s a cord right by the car. I hit a button on the plug end, which opens the charging port, I shove it in, and I walk away.

The car doesn’t begin charging right away unless I tell it to. It is smart enough to know that I like it to be charged after 11pm (and to stop at 7am). Why do I choose 11pm? Because I signed up for an EV time of use plan with the local utility. So my electricity costs me 1¢ per kWh from 11pm-7am. From empty, assuming the loss from inefficiencies and all that quoted in the study, my 75 kWh car costs me about 96¢ to fill up. An SUV with similar cargo volume, a lot closer to $96.

Now, knowing that electricity is so cheap at night, we set our machines to do the laundry and dishes overnight. And our AC runs cold at night so it doesn’t have to run from 2p-7p weekdays when it’s 20¢ per kWh. Consequently, our electric bill has actually gone down.

With my daily mileage, I can, if I so choose, charge every couple of days or wait until it’s very low. Or I can make it a habit to plug in every night to wake up to a fully charged battery.

Now, quick aside and a minor con, it’s been suggested that battery health is best when you charge to 80% and discharge to 20% for day to day. So my 256 mile battery gets only 200 miles charge unless I’m going on a trip.

Another nugget from the con column… perhaps it’s the way I drive, but I often don’t get the rated mileage. Seat heaters, cold weather, etc. do result in even higher consumption. Hopefully these are problems that can be solved with future technology.

But I can, from the kitchen or Guam for that matter, turn on those seat heaters so the car is ready for me in minutes. Or, i can set it to anticipate based on my schedule, that I’ll want those seat heaters on at 7:25am on any given day. I watch neighbors lean out the door to chirp the key fob to start their SUVs – the lucky ones anyway. The less fortunate head out in their skivvies to start the thing by hand.

My cost of maintenance after three years of ownership can be measured in bottles of wiper fluid (and, well, I suppose wipers). Open the bonnet (affectionately referred to as the frunk) and you’ll see enough space for a small carry-on and a hole to pour in the aforementioned wiper fluid. That’s it.

And don’t even get me started on the assistive driving technology. I point the car where I’m going, flip a switch, and it gets me there. My commute is 90% less stressful.

But perhaps most important of all, it’s bags and bags of fun. How can you put a price on that?
 

husky drvr

Platinum Level Sponsor
As an actual owner of an EV as a daily driver, I feel compelled to weigh in.

Greg,

Thank you for your write up. I appreciate your input. Most interesting in several points.

Bill,

You still haven't told me why this study is biased, within the limits and conditions of the study parameters, without trying to change the overall scope of the study. I'm not in need of being convinced about which vehicle is the best, EV or ICE.

Have you ever owned and driven, long term, a large truck? The people who own those trucks are the ones who will be the absolute last to switch to EV's, and then only because they will be forced into the change. Don't forget that large truck's are currently the most profitable, and best selling, segment of the automaker's inventories.

Some of the motivation for owning large trucks is a direct social backlash against the part of society that feels those same trucks have no purpose. Think of it as an expression of their First Amendment rights. Then, the same old arguments of it's safer for the truck's passengers, the truck driver has better visibility, it's comfortable - more applicable to newer models and, it's a status symbol that's portable and is difficult to overlook.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...pickup-truck&usg=AOvVaw2ZhuC58PhH5AOR9kmjhxxe

Don
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Don, if the expressed purpose of the "study" is hogwash, that does not bode well for the "facts" expressed in the "study". But thanks for the comments about truck owners, you back up my point 100%. Fuel costs are not a terribly important factor for Americans when purchasing a vehicle, which makes the expressed reason for the study to be, at best, off target. At worst, cause to wonder who commissioned the study. I'm thinking the API, throwing mud at the EV concept. Gotta keep those oil wells going, 'ya know?

There, that is why this study is biased.

If you do not think the "study" is biased, try to fit Greggers experience into the scope of the report. Lots of luck there.

Bill
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
I ave to wonder if the technology could supply enough electricity to supply a heavily used interstate? It is not uncommon to see convoys of a dozen big rigs, running almost as a single unit. Could enough power be supplied for say, 100 trucks/mile? BTW, the concept could easily fit into a self driving scenario, in which the truck self drives across vast distances on the interstate and a live driver starts and completes the journey. LA to NY @ 70 mph, no breaks.

Bill
 

puff4

Platinum Level Sponsor
I’m picturing a charging area at a rest stop on Sunday night of Thanksgiving weekend on I-95 near DC, once everyone has an electric car.

It’s not all about how long it takes to charge YOUR car, but about how long it takes before you can GET to charge your car… you get to do yours once every one of the cars in that massive line is done.
 

loose_electron

Donation Time
One idea that has been proposed on battery powered cars is the use of swappable battery pack.

A standardized battery pack is slid out of your car, and a fresh full charged one is slid in.

Off you go. As fast as filling the tank with gas.

The swap out station recharges the pack and gets it ready for another car that comes into the station 3-6 hours later.

You don't own the batter pack, but pay some sort of lease-rental fee instead.

Right now we are in the "Model A" era of zero emissions vehicles. Only recently have we shown that E cars can be something more than a glorified golf cart. Lots of room for improvement and innovation.

Personally I think that batteries are not the final solution, something that can refuel quickly and easily is needed. I suspect that hydrogen fuel cells will be the way going forward, or maybe flow batteries where you drain and replace the electrolyte, but I'm speculating.
 
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