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New-Old Gauge Setups

loose_electron

Donation Time
yeah i thought of trying to do that but I'm inclined to stay as original as possible. i don't mind the quarks. Good luck with your plan..hope it works out well..

At some point you make a decision, is this a "resto mod" build, or is this an "as original as possible" build?

Considering when I got this car it already had the V6 modification, it was going to be modified. That said, the electrical system has now been gone through end to end and a lot of the older connections and sockets have been removed in favor of reliability over "era correctness" plus, there was no way I could leave cloth wiring installations in place and think that it would be safe or reliable.

I was surprised to run into cloth insulation on some wires, considering that the main wiring looms are early era plastic. My guess is that the design included some electrical sockets from 1950's era designs, that got re-used in the newer 60's era design.

Mind you, I have restored antique radios from the 1925 to 1940 era, so none of the (unsafe) stuff from early era electrical design surprises me.

My guideline for this build has been to make the car look correct to the era, but improvements are hidden. Some examples:
* all the lights are now LED but you can't tell just by looking.
* there is a hidden MP3 player that is invisible
* there will be a set of hidden USB ports to plug a cell phone into.
* Pete's wiring harness setup that he sells here is the guts of the electrical system

To a Sunbeam expert, things like the wiring harness are not era correct. The things I want to avoid are "visible modern gadgets" like the USB plugs and the MP3 player. Those are carefully hidden away.

Also, I have modified the power distribution a bit with a 350A fuse near the battery, and a 100A fuse on the power feed to the ignition switch, which makes the system pretty bulletproof to any wires shorting to the body of the car. I may adjust the values of those fuses down a bit, but 350A should be good for cold cranking and 100A should easily support the general fuse box distribution. Once the car is back and running I will do some measurements to determine appropriate values.

Right now I am rebuilding the dashboard, and am planning a few more indicator lights (closer to S5 type of setup) getting rid of the cigarette lighter, getting rid of the windshield squirter (they never worked well even back when they were new) and similar tweaks.

Right now I am debating the removal of the heater blower system controls on the dashboard. Here in Southern CA this is going to be a sunny day only car, and the heating system will never get used. In this car, the heat exchanger and blower are installed, but the cloth-wire duct pipes are gone and the functionality of the blower motor is in question. Not sure if getting all that working is worth the effort.

A word of caution to anyone doing auto electrical, learn how to crimp and test wire connections! I ended up properly redoing absolutely every wire in the car. The high amperage wires (battery, alternator, cranking) were all smash downs done with a set of vise-grips, which could be pulled apart by hand. Using a hydraulic crimper those all were re-done, and then all the little stuff (12 AWG and smaller) was done with a proper crimping tool, strain tested, and booted with heat shrink tubing.

Just my thoughts on this project, everything ahead of the windshield is done, and everything behind the driver is done. Now it all comes together in the re-wire of the dashboard and everything there.

Jerry
 

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
Jerry, Have you given any thought to pulling the heater core and the fan out of the Alpine?

I did that when I restored my SV Commodore Blue way back when.

It was replaced with the Vintage Air (Heat & A/C unit) which is now powered by the 2.8 V6;)

DanR


P.S. Another option is the EPS, check it out....
 

loose_electron

Donation Time
Jerry, Have you given any thought to pulling the heater core and the fan out of the Alpine?

I did that when I restored my SV Commodore Blue way back when.

It was replaced with the Vintage Air (Heat & A/C unit) which is now powered by the 2.8 V6;)

DanR


P.S. Another option is the EPS, check it out....

Power steering seems like cheating. :D

Which vintage air unit? I thought they did just AC systems, not combined heat and air.
http://www.vintageair.com/catalog2017.asp
 

Paul A

Alpine Registry Curator
Platinum Level Sponsor
Jerry - Lots of good work here - congratulations. Pete

At some point you make a decision, is this a "resto mod" build, or is this an "as original as possible" build?

Considering when I got this car it already had the V6 modification, it was going to be modified. That said, the electrical system has now been gone through end to end and a lot of the older connections and sockets have been removed in favor of reliability over "era correctness" plus, there was no way I could leave cloth wiring installations in place and think that it would be safe or reliable.

I was surprised to run into cloth insulation on some wires, considering that the main wiring looms are early era plastic. My guess is that the design included some electrical sockets from 1950's era designs, that got re-used in the newer 60's era design.

Mind you, I have restored antique radios from the 1925 to 1940 era, so none of the (unsafe) stuff from early era electrical design surprises me.

My guideline for this build has been to make the car look correct to the era, but improvements are hidden. Some examples:
* all the lights are now LED but you can't tell just by looking.
* there is a hidden MP3 player that is invisible
* there will be a set of hidden USB ports to plug a cell phone into.
* Pete's wiring harness setup that he sells here is the guts of the electrical system

To a Sunbeam expert, things like the wiring harness are not era correct. The things I want to avoid are "visible modern gadgets" like the USB plugs and the MP3 player. Those are carefully hidden away.

Also, I have modified the power distribution a bit with a 350A fuse near the battery, and a 100A fuse on the power feed to the ignition switch, which makes the system pretty bulletproof to any wires shorting to the body of the car. I may adjust the values of those fuses down a bit, but 350A should be good for cold cranking and 100A should easily support the general fuse box distribution. Once the car is back and running I will do some measurements to determine appropriate values.

Right now I am rebuilding the dashboard, and am planning a few more indicator lights (closer to S5 type of setup) getting rid of the cigarette lighter, getting rid of the windshield squirter (they never worked well even back when they were new) and similar tweaks.

Right now I am debating the removal of the heater blower system controls on the dashboard. Here in Southern CA this is going to be a sunny day only car, and the heating system will never get used. In this car, the heat exchanger and blower are installed, but the cloth-wire duct pipes are gone and the functionality of the blower motor is in question. Not sure if getting all that working is worth the effort.

A word of caution to anyone doing auto electrical, learn how to crimp and test wire connections! I ended up properly redoing absolutely every wire in the car. The high amperage wires (battery, alternator, cranking) were all smash downs done with a set of vise-grips, which could be pulled apart by hand. Using a hydraulic crimper those all were re-done, and then all the little stuff (12 AWG and smaller) was done with a proper crimping tool, strain tested, and booted with heat shrink tubing.

Just my thoughts on this project, everything ahead of the windshield is done, and everything behind the driver is done. Now it all comes together in the re-wire of the dashboard and everything there.

Jerry
 

loose_electron

Donation Time
Jerry - Lots of good work here - congratulations. Pete

Thanks, getting there - The wiring harness is pretty well thought out. Having a schematic of the system from the start would have been a good thing, but I reverse engineered what was there and figured it out. Now I have an end to end schematic of the system, but it's on about 20 pieces of paper.

If I feel motivated at some point I will draw it out properly and get a copy to you. For the moment the loose pile of paper is getting it done.

Odd fitting parts to get the job done include a NOS turn signal switch from a Triumph which required a custom fabricated mount, a high-low beam foot switch (New clone replacement) from Ford cars of the 70's era, and a multitude of replacement lamps and sockets from modern equivalents found on EBay.

In the process of taking things apart I found a lot of things that could stand improvement, and if it was invisible in the end result I went with the newer version.

Getting there - I am waiting for a piece of walnut grained Formica, which will be the new front face of the dashboard, should be rugged and yet look nice as well.

When it is all done I will post pictures.
 

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
Power steering seems like cheating. :D

Which vintage air unit? I thought they did just AC systems, not combined heat and air.
http://www.vintageair.com/catalog2017.asp

Nope! Not cheating! Makes for a very nice driver especially around town, parking and just plain driving....
+++++++++++++++++++


They do a nice Heat and A/C unit which I have in my Commodore Blue.

Next I'm doing an OLD AIR heat & air in the Green1

Try it you may like it;)
 

loose_electron

Donation Time
Nope! Not cheating! Makes for a very nice driver especially around town, parking and just plain driving....
+++++++++++++++++++


They do a nice Heat and A/C unit which I have in my Commodore Blue.

Next I'm doing an OLD AIR heat & air in the Green1

Try it you may like it;)

Dan - Can you point me at the specific heat-air unit that you are thinking about? I can only find the AC devices. tnx jerry
 

65beam

Donation Time
setups

Search for the Gen11(2) Mini and Compac units. They can be ordered with both heat and cool. I know of a few Beams that have these units installed.
 

Chazbeam

Silver Level Sponsor
Jerry,

A couple years ago Chazbeam and I figured out the Series I and II gauges and senders.

From 0 to full scale on both the fuel and temp gauges requires the sender to go from about 100 Ohms for 0 on the dial to about 20 ohms for mid scale to about 7 or 10 ohms for full scale. So that's the range of the senders for Empty to Full on the fuel and 90 to 230 deg on the temp.

See post 20 on this thread for more detail:
http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13700

Tom
Hay guys have not been on in a while and seems that thread is lost at least the links not working. and thanks TOM for the mention...

Yeah those are the specs..i even had drawings and resistor readings oh well, but Toms description above is accurate to what we fond out.
Actually what i'm doing now is making a little mosfet circuit that i can adjust the meter perfectly with...a few parts and perhaps ill create a little PC board that could plug right up to the meter.
 

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
Dan - Can you point me at the specific heat-air unit that you are thinking about? I can only find the AC devices. tnx jerry


Jerry, I just saw your request about data on the A/C.... Sorry that I did not see this before now!

I have the Vintage Air unit in the Blue Boy with both the Heat and A/C.

I am utilizing the Old Air Unit in the next two Alpines, both of which will also have the Heat and A/C options.

I like them because I can remove the rather large and cumbersome heater coil and the fan assembly. Makes for lots more room underneath.

Let me know if you want more info. Send me an E-mail?
 

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Chazbeam, Just so you know, I have studied the Series I & II gauges a good bit more, testing 4 samples of each. The Fuel and Temp gauges are not identical. In fact they work backwards from each other. The Fuel Gauge reads Empty with near zero resistance from the sender and Full with about 70 Ohms. . But the Temp gauge reads full scale (230 F) with low resistance (about 7 ohms) and 90 F at about 200 Ohms. Biggest problem with the Temp gauge is that the original senders (TT4800/00) are no longer available. The replacement senders that our suppliers have come up with are the nearest equivalent available, but do not follow the same response curve as the original. So any circuit you come up with will need to work with whatever senders are available.
 
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