Weber 32/36 Carb Help

[mferris]

If anyone here has Weber experience or now where to point me online - please do. I'm not having good luck searching for information on how this carb works, and am making educated guesses by looking at it.

I'm continuing the lengthly thread I started on "stock" - as I've now narrowed this down (well the next step of debugging anyway) the Carb.

Former thread with more details:
http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17287

In short:
- Weber 32/36 DFAV (actually an Autolite D12F EAD 1AD)
- Very hard to start, *lots* of backfiring, got to the point of turning corners going up hill then no power backfires, stalls, then won't start for a while.
- Replaced all ignition (points/rotor/cap/wires)
But I still had the same symptoms.

So I removed the Carb on Sat and there was a swimming pool of gas sitting in the bottom of the intake manifold. This would explain a lot (visible drops of gas blowing back through the barrels into the air, turning corner - sloshing gas into the cylinders and bogging it down.

I soaked out the gas with a rag, reinstalled the carb, and tried to start it *without* pumping the pedal. It immediately fired (so the ignition is working), but wouldn't run, and after turning it over for only a few seconds, looked through the carb into the manifold - and there is standing gas again in the bottom of the manifold.

I removed the carb and disassembled (see pics). I blew on the gas intake with the air horn inverted (so the valve was closed - and it sealed very well). The only think I'm not certain of is if the power valve (see large spring) is connecting with the valve at the bottom of the bowl and compressing it normally. I also removed that valve at the bottom of the bowl and it will not completely seal with normal pressure (i.e. I had to take a sharp object and compress the needle into the valve completely in order to keep from being able to blow through it) although it looks as if it may *not* never really need to seal, esp if this is an idle jet/valve?

I'm waiting on a carb rebuild kit - but I'm not sure that it will make much difference.

Keep in mind that I'm just trying to get the car working while I'm waiting on receiving my V6 conversion kit from Jose. I'm doing this as a learning experience before starting over with the V6 - but would like to get the carb running.

Other than doing a rebuild with the kit (again - not sure what the culprit is here - the gaskets look great) - not sure what to do other than spend a few hundred on a new carb - but that's not a guarantee (and I'd rather have a holley 4 barrel for the V6!).

-Mike

 

[hotrod]

I initially had a problem with my 36 DG weber dumping fuel into the manifold. I adjusted the float level and that cured it.

 

[Bill Blue]

The valve in the bottom of the carb is the power valve and is activated by the spring loaded device. Sounds like the power valve is the problem.

Bill

 

[agmason54]

Weber help

Beamers,
I must had made a dozen of these over the years.The U shaped piece is stock on some two barrels but can be made up along with the back tab that attaches to the upper master clylinder bolt. I use 'all-tread' to make it infinitely adjustable.This way it can be installed and adjusted to any 2barrel carb-Weber,Holly-Weber,Holly or FoMoCo.Early Pinto is my favorite.
My drawing on the left shows how to install a simple bell crank for the Alpine choke cable and at the bottom right hand corner shows what the final (wide open)linkage set-up looks like.If the 'all tread' is too crude for your tastes then you can unbolt it and have the same thing duplicated by why bother?
I run a bicycle cable on WAR PONY with a custom pedal that allows my leg to stretch straight out but that is another story....
later
Agm

 

[RootesRich]

I think you have multiple issues going on.
The fact there was a pool of fuel at the bottom of the manifold leads me to think that your backfiring issue is ignition related and not a lean fuel condition. I'd double and triple check your ignition timing. I'd follow the WSM procedure to set the static timing and go from there.
Secondly, the fact you have gas in your manifold leads me to think your float needs to be checked/ adjusted as well as checking the needle valve is working properly. Additionally, I believe you've mentioned you're running an electric fuel pump. Are you running a regulator as well and if so, what's the pressure set to? If no regulator, stop and get one immediately.
Hope this helps.

 

[Alpine 1789]

This is just a long shot, but have the valves been adjusted recently? I had similar symptoms the first time I adjusted mine. It turned out that I had done it ass-backwards and that was the source of my problems.

 

[mferris]

Hi Jim,

I have no idea if they were ever adjusted - apparently this car sat for 10 years or so before I purchased it. I can visibly see that the primary barrel (the smaller barrel - which is black from the backfires I presume) - has the larger of the two jets in the bottom of the bowel. Should the primary barrel get the larger diameter jet - or is this really suppose to be for the secondary barrel?

On the other comments - I don't know if this is an electric pump (that was someone else on the other thread). I do know that the manifold filled with gas within about 20 seconds of cranking - without me touching the accelerator (i.e. no accelerator pump action). I don't know if there is a backfire issue any longer as I haven't gotten it to run with the new ignition bits. But I'm not too anxious to try it until I can keep the manifold dry in the first 20 seconds.

I'm going to order a new power valve assembly (spring loaded rod/diaphram which attaches to top of air horn) as well as (bottom of tub) as well as the full power needle valve. I read somewhere online that the power valve can be blown by a backfire (and I've had my shares). Although the diaphragm looks fine - I'll just get one to see if it makes any difference.

I also noted that the accelerator pump jets only pump gas into the small barrel (primary) and the secondary jet doesn't do anything (even though it has an arm hanging into the barrel - just no hole in the end of the jet). I see online that the replacement has a hole in each arm - I might just get one of those since I'm now officially wasting money.


-Mike

 

[Tom H]

On the other comments - I don't know if this is an electric pump (that was someone else on the other thread). I do know that the manifold filled with gas within about 20 seconds of cranking - without me touching the accelerator (i.e. no accelerator pump action).

Mike, Ya gotta know if ya have an electric fuel pump!!!!

Follow the fuel line from the carb to the pump. If it's the normal (mechanical) pump,it will be mounted on the distributor side of the engine, low on the block, near the front, just forward of the oil filter. If it's located anywhere else, it's an electric pump and NEEDS a pressure regulator.

Tom

 

[mferris]

Thanks Tom. Brain freeze on my part. Absolutely have a mechanical pump. It is filling up the intake manifold so I know it's working.

 

[Robbo]

I agree with an earlier post, you may have multiple issues to check on, but check off the simplest first. You mentioned the car sat for a while before you had it, so a few things worth checking on (no need to respond, just some suggestions):
1) is the fuel old, or a new tank of gas?
2) is the float stuck? The pin can come lose when you take the top off often. A good cleaning of the entire carb is worthwhile starting there with some carb cleaner (and don't get that stuff on the paint or you'll be cursing).
3) is the float itself damaged? Sometimes even a pinhole can open and put fuel in the float, just gently shake it to be sure
4) adjust the float level according to the weber site suggestions
5) is your idle mix way to rich? I'd back out 1 1/2 to 2 turns just to get started
6) is your choke getting stuck or your throttle mechanism at the base of the carb? Sometimes the choke linkage can get stuck or bent too when you remove the top of the carb. It sounds like your accelerator pump in the carb is working by shooting a shot of fuel into the primary, so that sounds ok
7) is the timing right? With backfiring, it sounds like that might be something to check off first and know you've at least got it close
8) is the ignition working properly? You'll be chasing carb issues for a long time if the car isn't set to start because of ignition issues (points/condenser, points gap, good coil, of course timing, etc.)

These are just some items to check off the list and only suggestions. I'm not as skilled as some of the other members, but have learned a lot about webers and getting my sv going from them and others. They are a good carb set up and once you've got it set you'll be really pleased. The #1 suggestion I got was to keep an eye on the basics. Good luck!

 

[mferris]

The saga continues. At this point I'm willing to spend the $200 and just pick up a new carb; however, does anyone have jetting specs for the 32/36 on a 1725?


Today:
- Rebuilt the 32/36
- blew out all channels I could find with carb cleaner, then compressed air
- soaked the air horn in cleaner 1-2 hours, then cleaned out
- new gasket, and a few new washers where the kit had them
- new main needle valve/seat (including gasket)
- new power valve and power valve assembly (I thought this was the problem)
- new accelerator pump
- adjusted float to 42mm at full bowl (blew on valve - and yes, it seals very well)

Intall:
- dried out the standing gas in the bottom of the intake mainfold
- installed carb
- *without* touching accelerator, turned ignition - it fired immediately then died (which I expected as the carb was dry anyway)
- spent next 1-2 minutes trying to start it
- finally go it going, rough but idled ok.

after about a minute - it died and would not restart

*I have yet to touch the accelerator*

Took off carb
- the bowl had fuel, but it was lower than last week, which was expected given that we adjusted the float.
- However: the intake manifold was swimming pool of gas, even with it idling for 1-2 minutes (again - I didn't touch the gas)

Then things got crazy trying to start it:
- took out idle jets - they looked ok
- cranked down the idle air/fuel screw - tried to start it, then backed it 1.5 turns , tried to start it, etc.
- advanced/retarded the timing

The engine will try to start almost every time I turn the key (it a cylinder or 2 hits), but the carb continue to pump gas into the intake - so it is constantly flooded, even after we suck the gas out - it immediately fills up (i.e. within 5 seconds of cranking, even with the engine trying to idle a few turn and me not pushing on the gas).

-M

 

[Ken Ellis]

Can you check to see if the floats are flooding? If they leak, they would fill up slowly, and then sink... Maybe??

If you can wrap them up with the material from nytrile gloves, with a twisty tie at the top, that might let you check.

 

[mferris]

Never mind on the request for jetting - I found all the old posts.

However, looks like I cannot find a DFAV online - so will have to go with a DFEV. Oh, well - progress.

-Mike

 

[RootesRacer]

Never mind on the request for jetting - I found all the old posts.

However, looks like I cannot find a DFAV online - so will have to go with a DFEV. Oh, well - progress.

-Mike

Or better yet, a DFV and YOU decide when to use the choke.

 

[mferris]

Fully agree - I'd rather have manual choke. Are DFVs available? I can't find any - only DGV (which I presume will have the wrong orientation for me).

It looks like I can get a DFEV and then get a $17 Weber manual choke conversion kit. So that's a perfectly reasonable solution from my vantage.

webercarbsdirect.com seems to have the better prices online that I've found for DFEVs - I'm presuming these are new/authentic.

-Mike

 

[mferris]

Ignition Issues (?)

My 1725 is still DOA.

I have installed a new carb 32/36 DFEV - converted to manual choke (which I like very much) - and am still unable to get the engine to do anything other than just catch, or hit 3-4 cylinders and then die. The intake still fills with gas, bit I presume that is an ignition issue.

I have already replaced all wires (validating firing order by the book), rotor/cap/points (set to 0.015) even took the hour and set static timing according to the WSM (i.e. 6-10deg BTDC). It didn't make any different.

I then played with the advance until a few fireballs came out of the carb when trying to start it - so we gave up - not wanting to ruin the new Weber.

This leaves me with three items that I can think of:

1) Coil (???) - I'm not running ballast today, not sure that if I go ahead and get this coil whether I need one? http://bit.ly/ruYaMr

2) Plugs - took one out today, grounded it and saw plenty of spark - I guess I'll just get new ones - but that also leads me to believe that the coil is ok???

3) Valves - the only other possibility that I've seen mentioned. I tested compression again - 150,150,120,110 which ain't good - but I'd think it would start so maybe the valves are out of adjustment.

Note that when the car was delivered, we managed to get it running without much work, and advanced the timing until it ran relatively well. We went for a 10 mile run, then backfiring started and it's been downhill from there - but I've now replaced the carb and most of the ignition bits.

Any other ideas appreciated.

-Mike

 

[Ron67Alpine]

Have ya thrown a timing light on it? dwell meter? Are the contacts on the points clean? condencer? Is the distributer oriented correctly? Grounding somewhere?
Just some thoughts,
good luck
Ron

 

[mferris]

new condensor, new points - so I think those are ok.

had a timing light on it when it was running - and it seemed okay. since I can't get it to start - can I use a timing light while cranking?

distributor is like it always was - then we rotated it (ever so minimally) to set it to static timing.

Haven't checked dwell..but it was running before we changed points/wires/rotor/carb.

has me baffled.

 

[Ken Ellis]

Have you checked that your intake manifold gasket isn't leaking?
When I installed my weber, it was almost impossible to start due to massive air leak -- due to intake manifold hitting the header, and preventing seal at the bottom of the manifold. The pool of gas could be there because all the air comes in after the carb...

Or, I could be full o' crap, too. But I ended up trimming additional lumps off the casting, and using two intake gaskets stacked, and lots o' goo, and it runs great now.

 

[RootesRich]

Mike, please correct me if I misread your posts, but did you state that you are now running a new carb resulting in the same pool of fuel visible at the bottom of the intake manifold? Is this a new carb fresh out of the box?

Can you post a picture of the "pool of fuel" condition? I'd really like to see what you are considering a pool. A little fuel is normal and why Rootes put a manifold drain on the intake.

Also, my advice would be to stop messing around with the ignition timing. Set it to static per the WSM and if the engine runs, leave it be.

With the "pool" of fuel mopped up and the ignition timing set to static, start the car. Please note if you're starting the car with or without the aid of the choke. If the engine dies after running for a few minutes, please note if you did anything before the engine died (for example blipped the throttle or adjusted the choke). If/ when the engine dies, immediately pull a spark plug and check for a spark. I want to know if perhaps your coil is getting overheated and quitting.

I'm not trying to offend you and don't mean to come across as an a$$, but there seems to be a lot of suggestions that may or may not be helpful and the info I'm trying to pick apart that will aid in my and others' diagnosis is getting a bit convoluted.

I believe your issue is a simple one, but we just need to eliminate a simple few things to get to the answer.