Wheel Offset

alpine_64 · Jul 15, 2018

There are tiger guys who have done various forms of irs.. Mustang conversions, coil over conversions even a jag rear end.

Rootes in period did build a prototype de-dion irs for the tiger ( buck tripple is currently restoring the car) but it failed to go into production for cost reasons and vibration transfer at low speed iirc. Though it did cure the tigers axle tramp, lop sided takeoff and also made it ride and handle.

Personally i think a set of good quality shocks adjusted to suit, rebuilt and correct rear springs and well rebuilt or appropriate new seats will go a long way for ride comfort in terms of movement and transfer of road bumps and nice tall sidewall touring tyres with light weight wheels.

Adding quality sound deadening, good window seals and no rattles will also go a long way

Charles Johns · Jul 15, 2018

Husky, thanks for the input. I had a 40 coupe drag car with Vette motor and traction Masters...and it was ROUGH if the traction bars were bolted in (they were partially removable which eliminated the harsh ride). Maybe Teflon between leafs and "softer" shocks...but then a bouncing rear is very hard to control. I think the front is settled, but the rear is a different matter. We used a rubber snubber over the third member to stop the ring gear from allowing the pinion to "climb" past a certain point under acceleration, while traction bars stopped leaf spring "wrap/twist" and shocks helped stop "hopping" under hard acceleration. Unfortunately, only some of my rear suspension knowledge applies to a street-driven car. With maybe 110 HP from a 4 cylinder with A4LD overdrive automatic, I doubt input from the pinion trying to "climb" up the ring gear will be a problem. Keeping the rear aligned while traversing bad roads, keeping steering under control, having a soft ride and doing it on a 50 year old short wheelbase car, appears to be a dream. With help from you guys, I'll give it my best shot! Coming from the Housing Projects, I do things as inexpensively as possible, where possible, but I will do it if I have to do it stealing ideas from those who have been there.

Charles Johns · Jul 16, 2018

Bill, the Mustang is not harsh or uncomfortable but could be better for loooong trips. The poly bushings everywhere but the front strut rods, and gas shocks plus V8 GT springs at both ends, make for a FIRMer ride. I like it a lot...but the wife likes softer. Due to the Beam having a much shorter wheelbase I want to hear all I can about suspension. So far it looks like a total rebuild with RUBBER bushings everywhere, 6" wide 14" wheels with 195x75-14" tires, Camaro shocks, Teflon between the rear leafs, and rebuilt stock brakes with an aftermarket master cylinder. Dial-in a couple of extra degrees +caster with a 14" foam steering wheel. Rebuilt stock seats, extra floor insulation, all new door/window seals, trunk and engine firewall insulation, plus added removable top insulation. Brighter lights, good heater/defroster, better wipers/washers, day-night rearview mirror, Air Conditioning and a good stereo are on my present list...but I am open to change. THANKS for all the help.

Bill Blue · Jul 16, 2018

"Though it did cure the tigers axle tramp, lop sided takeoff and also made it ride and handle."

Michael, what is the lop sided takeoff? First I've heard of that.

Bill

alpine_64 · Jul 16, 2018

Bill the torque reaction in a tiger means thet tend to turn right on a quick start, the irs rootes experimented with appatently allowed the car to transmit the power evenly and a quick start resulted in a straight pull away.

Bill Blue · Jul 17, 2018

So my Alpine is doing an imitation of a Tiger? Strange that wasn't mentioned when I was questioning why my car heads off to the right under heavy acceleration. Maybe Alpines aren't supposed to do that.

Bill

alpine_64 · Jul 17, 2018

Bill Blue said:
So my Alpine is doing an imitation of a Tiger? Strange that wasn't mentioned when I was questioning why my car heads off to the right under heavy acceleration. Maybe Alpines aren't supposed to do that.

Bill

Bill,

Yours is far from a stock alpine, id guess the torque rotation of your conversion causes the same issues.

My alpine has always pulled true on a quick getaway.. The tigers when new would pull to the side... My modified tiger requires quick hands for a quick start .... Quite a bit of correction if you use some rpm

Charles Johns · Jul 21, 2018

Hey, all this info sounds good to me and I don't like nothing! I feel like I am back reading my suspension books and re-learning things I forgot. Somewhere I have a complete set of Peterson's "Basic Suspension" books plus several "How to build for the track" books. The car seems to be a basic 60's suspension that was adaptable to the much more powerful Ford V8, so using a Ford 2.3 should not be a serious problem...he said wistfully.

William Lewis · Jan 16, 2020

I recently had Dayton Wire Wheel make up a set of 14" wires for me using the Alpine center hub and a larger rim with the intention of keeping the offset the same. (My 60 year old wires were starting to break and 13" tires are getting harder to find.) I have 185/65 tires on the car, so the overall tire size and width is unchanged from the 185/70-13 tires I had before. At high speeds, the car wanders and wants to grab lines in the road. I have made no other changes to the car, so I am assuming either the offset did change or the new tires are causing the wander. I do have one tie rod end that is a little sloppy (will change) and the shocks are old but seem OK and are the same set up before the new rims and tires. Any suggestions on how to go about sorting this out? I was planning on changing the tie rod ends and shocks, but I doubt that is the issue. Is there an order to toe, camber, caster changes or does one just start randomly changing things and hope for the better. Putting a spacer on the wheel hub would make the scrub radius more positive (I hated geometry and high school) and may help, or is that a crazy idea?

Bill Blue · Jan 16, 2020

Order of operations:
Camber, toe, caster. I have found the Alpine is not terribly sensitive to alignment. Keep the numbers sane and even side to side. Don't expect a miracle when you change something a degree or so.

Wheel selection should not affect the handling parameters that are bothering you, unless the lug nuts are loose or the wheels are otherwise "loose" on the car ( wheel design not compatible with Alpine hubs). Wheel spacers of sane dimensions should not impact handling.

Bill

Barry · Jan 17, 2020

William Lewis said:
I recently had Dayton Wire Wheel make up a set of 14" wires for me using the Alpine center hub and a larger rim with the intention of keeping the offset the same. (My 60 year old wires were starting to break and 13" tires are getting harder to find.) I have 185/65 tires on the car, so the overall tire size and width is unchanged from the 185/70-13 tires I had before. At high speeds, the car wanders and wants to grab lines in the road. I have made no other changes to the car, so I am assuming either the offset did change or the new tires are causing the wander. I do have one tie rod end that is a little sloppy (will change) and the shocks are old but seem OK and are the same set up before the new rims and tires. Any suggestions on how to go about sorting this out? I was planning on changing the tie rod ends and shocks, but I doubt that is the issue. Is there an order to toe, camber, caster changes or does one just start randomly changing things and hope for the better. Putting a spacer on the wheel hub would make the scrub radius more positive (I hated geometry and high school) and may help, or is that a crazy idea?

Similar radial tires can "feel" very different. In the absence of any other changes, I suspect that you went from a low-performance 185/70-13 radial to a more responsive 185/65-14 radial. Is the wheel width the same? Is the wheel width correct for the 185/65-14 radial? What is the tire pressure? A 185/65-14 radial does not need much pressure on a 2,200 lb. car.

The scrub radius on a Series Alpine is big time positive (2 to 3 inches, depending on wheel width and offset) and I don't think increasing it would help straight line stability. It would, however, aggravate the already high steering effort at low speed. In any case, I don't see how you could put wheel spacers on the front of a Series Alpine with wire wheels.

DanR · Jan 17, 2020

Did you balance your new wheels and tires?

How true are the new wire wheels?

Check the crosslink!! If you have not replace the rubber bushings before now, it may be a good time to do so?

Charles Johns · Jan 17, 2020

A very late THABK YOU HUSKY DRVR, for the suspension info. I filed it away when you posted but I think I forgot to say THANKS.

Charles Johns · Jan 17, 2020

Proof read, proof read, proof read. Car guys are not really good at that...at least this one.

William Lewis · Jan 19, 2020

I'm assuming the wheels that Dayton Wire Wheels sent to me were trued as part of the manufacturing. They are tubeless wires and messing with the spokes will cause them to leak air. The wheels were balanced as part of mounting the tires. I don't have problems with front end shake at speed so I am sure the balance and wheel true are OK.
The new tires have the same width, 185, as the previous radial tires but the wheel is wider to better accommodate the 185 width. I think the stock Alpine wheel is 4" and the new wheel is 5.5". The offset was to remain the same, but it is possible that it did change some.
Tire pressure is 30 psi.
Bill Blue put the same General tires on his car years ago and I ran across his thread stating he was having the same trouble with "squirm". He said it got better with use of the tire, but he also increased the caster some.
I will drive the car for a while before changing caster or anything else. Benign neglect may work wonders.

Charles Johns · Jan 20, 2020

I love the look of wire wheels, especially on a sportscar, but they do have problems others do not have. I am starting with 6" wide 14" aftermarket steel wheels, and probably phony knockoffs. Anyone run 215 x 70R - 14" tires on the rear? I am not sure about clearance when the body moves on uneven surfaces. Basic measuring of 205 and 215 by 14 inch tires seems to show the bigger tire may hit parts before bottoming on the rubber snubbers.

Toyanvil · Jan 20, 2020

+1 on checking the crosslink. A bad tie rod end and old shocks will make it drive like that. What series do you have? The early ones have metal bushing in the front that need grease or they will not move smooth. If you bounce your car up and down in the garage, does it always come back to the same spot?

Charles Johns · Jan 21, 2020

Many street rod builders use wire wheels and seem to have far more trouble than mags or steel. Just now getting back to installing the trans crossmember. Hope to have drive line in and bolted in place in a week. Crosslink is not yet installed but will do so after I pull the motor for the last time. For now I am running fuel lines, vacuum hoses, radiator hoses, wire looms without wires, and figuring out trans cooler lines. Lots to do. Pictures will follow soon...I hope.

Mike O'D · Jan 25, 2020

Charles,

Have you driven or ridden in an Alpine with totally rebuilt stock suspension? Everyone that I have taken for a ride comments that they can't believe how well it rides for a small sports car - pretty decent even compared to larger modern cars. Seems like you could spend a lot of time and effort to make things worse. I agree with the positive comments about the original seats (S3 - SV). I think they are very comfortable and adjustable. As suggested, add a head rest if you want to lean back.

Mike

Charles Johns · Jan 25, 2020

Mike, many decades ago I rode in the back package area at a dealer in Dallas. A friend was looking at buying a Tiger in 1965, but the dealer refused to allow a buyer to drive one but he did have dealer drivers to show a possible buyer what it could do. I also drove Bill Blue's Alpine and it had very good handling...at least to me. With a few poly bushings in certain places and rubber in most, I think it will ride nice. My motor/trans combo adds about 150 pounds over the OEM standard 4-speed and 1725, and that is my only real concern...front added weight. Much of it is the A4LD which is in the middle but I may add AC so 2500 pounds may be the low end of the scale. I am learning that at age 76 my work days are much shorter than when I built my last car 15 years ago. Lots of re-do work and addons since then, but a total build is a different animal. Anyway, I feel blessed to be able to work as hard as I do at my age, and I would much rather drop dead welding brackets or tuning a motor, than eating crème-of-wheat, Jell-O, and some unknown so-called pudding in a hospital room. If I am able to finish this thing, I'll drive it to the 4 corners of the USA...cause THAT is why I build cars.