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Wheel Offset

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Charles Johns

Donation Time
Bill, the Mustang was NOT uncomfortable for me at all, but the wife is use to reclining passenger seats, quiet interiors, soft music one can actually hear and 500 mile days being unable to recline got to her comfort zone. ME, I just dodged trucks, bad roads, zig-zagged thru traffic and enjoyed the trip. The V8 springs, 15" tires, gas shocks, poly bushings, Monte Carlo Bar and Export brace made the suspension work as designed...but somewhat stiffer. The wife likes soft and smooth rides like her Ford Escape. I just want to make the Beam comfy for her. I have 14" tires that are somewhat narrow in 195 x 75R-14 size but are wider than stock. With rebuilt OEM suspension using rubber bushings, I will simply rebuild the stock (OEM) suspension and work from there. Adding extra modern heat/sound insulation, sealing all cracks/seams, using all new window/door seals and rubber with new glass...maybe I can make her ride comfy enough for her to enjoy the trip. I am shopping for seats now but do not want the high-back type as they seem to restrict vision in the small car.
 
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Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Maybe if you installed a Panhard bar to keep things aligned laterally and removed springs to soften the ride. At least it would be easy to do or undo.

Bill
 
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Charles Johns

Donation Time
Anyone install Watts-Linkage? It keeps things aligned better than just a bar. I have not yet looked really close at the rear suspension possibilities. Does anyone make the old non-gas shocks? The OEM suspension was designed for those. The old Camaro shocks are for a car weighing 1K more than the Beam.
 
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Charles Johns

Donation Time
Any preference on who to deal with for new parts? My e-mail is chasj43@gmail.com. It looks like the rubber suspension parts will be about $300.00 and rubber it is. The poly in my Mustang works great but definitely puts some "jolt" into the body/frame when hitting bumps. On the Beam I definitely want to isolate the suspension without making it feel "vague" to control. Total stock rebuild front with maybe a Tiger bar, the 14" tires and possibly cut half a coil from the springs. Remove ONE leaf from the rear with Teflon between the other leafs...maybe. With better seats, better insulation and all new seals, maybe I can make the wife comfy. I rode a 650SP Moto Guzzi all over the South for years doing 400 to 600 miles a day behind a bikini faring, so sportscars are a giant step up to Old Iron Butt! Butt, it was 30 years younger then.
 
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Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Charles Johns said:
Anyone install Watts-Linkage? It keeps things aligned better than just a bar. I have not yet looked really close at the rear suspension possibilities. Does anyone make the old non-gas shocks? The OEM suspension was designed for those. The old Camaro shocks are for a car weighing 1K more than the Beam.
Click to expand...
If you are looking for comfort, forget the old, non gas Alpine shocks. They are brutal. Even though they are designed for a much heavier car, the Camaro shocks are vastly superior for your needs.

Totally off the wall, but are there any small car shocks (think Rambler, Lark, Falcon, maybe even Pinto) that might work. On second thought, since you are actually building your car, consider buying appropriate shocks and make adaptors to make them "fit". Back in the late '80's, I had a Blakely Bearcat, a kit car based on Pinto components. Weighed about 1800 pounds, handled great and gave a very nice ride using Pinto gas shocks, front and rear.

Just a thought that didn't exist when I started typing. But you got to get out of the Alpine thought box. Start looking elsewhere.
Bill
 
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Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Charles, forgot to mention tower seats and other misc. items While they are nice, towers really, really restrict access to the rear seat unless the top is down. The stock seats flop forward, allowing great access to the rear. They recline and are pretty nice, especially when a head rest is added. I think you should not, out of hand, dismiss stock seats. They work well with the car and are comfortable. As a seat, my gripe against them is they are plastic covered.

You mention seals. That is one area that has been greatly improved over the past 50 years. Our door and top/side window seals are gen 1 Focus seals, fresh out of the junkyard. Much better seal than the OEM design. Actually water tight!

Watts link - my initial thought is why make perfect be the enemy of good. Lots of complexity is a small space. While the Watts Link is undoubtedly better than the Panhard Link, the Panhard Link is undoubtedly better than nothing, which is what your starting with.

That oughta do it for a while.

Bill
 
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Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
That is what I used. One roll was enough to be used full length between all leafs. The results of the "tune up" were much better than I had expected.

Bill
 
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Charles Johns

Donation Time
Bill, I used a Panard bar on several cars (T-buckets) and it worked fine to keep things located. I am just throwing out ideas as I ponder what to do. Making a very short wheelbase car ride smooth is next to impossible and I understand the war we are fighting. Low weight combined with a short wheelbase is the worst case option for a good ride...but I will try. THANKS to all of you for your ideas as it has been several years since my last suspension mind-bender.
 
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Charles Johns

Donation Time
Bill, I have stock seats and todays foam replacements should be better than OEM. I may give that a try. They also fall almost flat when flipped forward. This is not to brag, but I do all my own work except engine machine work and some upholstery. Engine building (ASE certified), wiring (degree in electronics), paint & body work (The guy who taught me built Ferrari P4 cars from pictures...from 4' x 8' aluminum panels...from scratch), and I am a so-so welder Metal Shop in high school). Coming from the housing projects in Dallas, I could not afford to pay for anything, and my Dad was a machinist who told me to learn everything I could about mechanical things. Fabrication is not a problem with 2 older sisters who taught me how to cut out dress patterns as a little boy, then transfer that to material. Don't laugh, cutting out a motor mount pattern from cardboard then transferring it to metal is exactly the same. Stitching it together with a welder is much like sewing things together...just a little brighter and hotter.
 
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Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Charles, our backgrounds are very similar, except I ended up with a masters degree in entomology and a career working for the state.
A very big problem I have with the Watts Link is that it mounts on the rear of the differential case. In an Alpine, that is bad because the parking brake mechanism has dibs on that space.

If you are considering the stock seats, take a look at what we did. The headrests are from an early 90's full size Chevy pickup. We hate plastic seats, so had a local upholstery shop make new skins. As you can see, they are well designed for the car, lacking only the seat belt 3rd point support. Never could figure that out, which is a big reason we went to the Miata tower seat.
 

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Charles Johns

Donation Time
Bill, your car's ride was fine and it handled well in town and out on the highway. Those seats fit me okay also, so I will probably go with a rebuild of the OEM seats and maybe your headrest idea. Who sells the best foam replacements and covers? I am no fan of vinyl either but it works good for an open car. Tweed works well when mixed with vinyl for comfy seats that breathe, so that may be one choice.
 
Barry

Barry

Diamond Level Sponsor
Regarding previous references to a Panhard bar; a typical leaf spring rear suspension system does not need or benefit from either a Panhard bar or a Watts linkage. A coil spring rear suspension system is a different discussion.
 
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Charles Johns

Donation Time
Barry, I agree...most of the time, but with a soft-sprung car the leaf rears may "flex/twist" causing the rear to drift. Not a big deal on a longer wheelbase car, but could be trouble with the under 90" Beam. Staying with rubber bushings and maybe removing a leaf to get a softer ride, twisting could come into play. I am just bouncing around ideas before doing the actual work. I definitely appreciate any input since this is my first sportscar. I doubt I will need a Panhard bar or any locating hardware, but I definitely do NOT want to stiffen the ride beyond a good comfort level. I am also looking at coil-overs, which WOULD require some type of rearend locating system. I do prefer "simple" though so leafs are probably staying.
 
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Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Charles, just to be clear: The seats you rode on are 2007 Miata seats, not the modified stock seats in the photos.

Barry, I suggested using the Panhard Link in an effort to see how if the rear suspension could be made soft enough while keeping the handling tidy. Hence the suggestion to check into a totally different class of shocks. While I do not understand all the suspension forces at play, therefore my rejection of a rear roll bar, I thought this approach would be pretty safe.

As you pretty much know, I'm always open to suggestions. Got any?

Bill
 
todd reid

todd reid

Gold Level Sponsor
Bill,
I agree with most of what you wrote, but not on keeping the stock 13" wheels. I felt my ride improved greatly when I moved up to 14" Fairmont/Mustang wheels (I have since moved up to 15" Panasports). IIRC the Ford wheels were only 1/2" wider than stock - I ran 165/80 tires on both the 13" & 14" wheels - the weight penalty is small, the wheels cost next to nothing, and tire availability is better.

The other variable that no one has mentioned is tire pressure. The Alpine is a light car. You don't need to be running the max allowed pressures - the tires are your first line of defense in handling bumps.

Just my 2 cents - your mileage may vary!

TR
 
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Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
You might well be right, its been along time since I went to 15" wheels and I have never driven the car without the big rotors. It is my recollection that the smaller wheels were much better on washboard type surfaces.

Tire pressure is a real study. I had a Blakely Bearcat (1800 pound car with 185-13 tires) was almost uncontrollable at normal tire pressure. On secondary roads, it literally bounced across the road surface. But at 18-22 psi handled and rode like a dream.

With the Alpine, I find that I have to have at least 28 psi in order to keep the 175 x 15 sidewalls off the road surface.

Bill
 
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Charles Johns

Donation Time
Okay, now we have tire pressure to add to the equation. Many of my old Hot Rod buddies with very light T-Buckets had that problem. Imagine a heavy V8 in front and almost no weight in the back. Some guys took months to work out tire pressures and coil-over adjustment. Compression, rebound, load, side load, launch weight transfer, and on and on it goes. At least I am starting with 14" tires on wider 6" rims...if they will fit. With all I plan motor wise, I am sure 100+ mph will be easy to achieve, but probably not recommended unless absolutely necessary...say, an 18 wheeler pushing me down a mountain!!
 
husky drvr

husky drvr

Platinum Level Sponsor
Here are a couple of thoughts for discussion about the Alpine's "ride" and rear suspension.

First, the Alpine's basic architecture and suspension was derived from an already in production small, inexpensive, utility station wagon. The front suspension is designed with "semi-trailing" control arms which tend to smooth the feel of road harshness - bumps. The rear suspension is basic, utilitarian and all a load carrying vehicle requires without much concern about other factors. Now consider the fact that the Alpine's seating places the occupants almost directly over the point where the rear suspension inputs its reaction to bumps into the Alpine body, the front mounts of the leaf springs. The rear bump input is going to be felt by the occupants at almost a 1:1 ratio compared to a much smaller input from the same bump on the softer and more distant front suspension. Rootes did address the rear ride issue through the different series Alpines. The SI Alpine had almost exactly the Husky's rear suspension; a tall, narrow leaf spring pack with many blades. The SII progressed to a spring design with fewer blades that are wider. The later Series incorporated the offset front spring eye to help cushion the rear suspension input from a bump. This all leads to the thought that the only real answer to reduce the pitching ride quality is to design and convert to an independent rear suspension to eliminate the heavy live axle and move the suspension input to a point on the body further back from the occupants.

Second, the lateral control of a leaf spring is almost entirely a function of the main leaf in the pack. The other leaves contribute very little to lateral control because if they are clamped well enough to the main leaf to help with lateral control, then the spring pack will be challenged to perform as a compliant spring.
 
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