Valve Adjustment

[CRBASIN]

I am planning to adjust my valves, hoping to correct low compression in one cylinder. A squirt of oil into the cylinder did not result in any change so I am assuming I have a valve problem. The car came with a receipt for a valve job, so maybe a valve is not closing.

A few questions after reading the workshop manual.

1. How hot is hot, and related to this how long does it take for a hot motor to cool?

2. Can one adjust Sunbeam valves on a cold motor?

3. Any suggestions on turning the crankshaft without special tools?

John

 

[hartmandm]

I let the car warm up fully to normal operating temperature. I adjusted the first 4 valves. Then ran the car again to heat it up again. Then adjusted the last 4 valves.

To rotate the crank on my series V, I have the original special nut that accepts the hand crank tool. I bought a Tekton 1/2" drive deep socket set (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000NPT6DE) to get the 1-5/16" socket. Then I use an Armstrong 1/2" drive ratchet. The Tekton socket length is 3-1/8" overall. Internal depth of socket is 2-1/4". The pulley socket bolt only needs 1-3/4" of clearance within the socket. So a socket that is only around 2-5/8" long should work. Total length of socket + ratchet is 4". I am able to wiggle the socket + wratchet on and off the pulley crank bolt. It is a bit tight, but it is doable if I wiggle it enough. (I have a stock radiator, too.)

Mike

 

[CRBASIN]

Thanks, Mike.

I used your suggestions and the Workshop manual, with one modification: I used a 34mm socket in place of the 1 5/16. Not perfect, but good enough.

The valves are much quieter now, but I still have one that is making more noise than I would like. I used a hose stethoscope to locate it at the front of the engine, either cylinder 1 or 2. I rechecked the adjustment on these valves and no improvement.

John

 

[hartmandm]

There is a thread that discussed checking valves while the engine is running:
http://sunbeamalpine.org/forum/showthread.php?t=22003

I've never done that, but am considering it in the future. Sounds like it is a bit messy, but you should be able to identify the specific valve or valves that are noisy and double check the gaps on those.

Mike

 

[RootesRooter]

Often the noise is not from the valves, but from the lifters and occasionally the cam lobes. Even minor pitting on a lifter can be noisy.

 

[Hillman]

Interesting, My 1/2 extension won't go through the hole for the crank (starting handle). At some point I'll get a long 3/8 or 1/4 with the needed adapters.

 

[hartmandm]

I didn't use an extension with the socket. It was just the ratchet and socket on the backside of the radiator. With my ratchet & socket pair, I had to start at an offset angle and rotate the socket to just the right orientation before the assembly would fit onto the crank bolt.

Mike

 

[Ron67Alpine]

Thanks for the old thread, it answered my question about how hot is hot and adjusting the valves 4 at a time. It was mentioned above a technique for adjusting them, while engine is running. Unfortunately the link is dead. I learned a technique, for this, in the 70's while keeping 60's junkers, on the road, so I could get to work. Basically, Run the engine til hot, then place the appropriate feeler gauge between the tappet and valve stem, while engine is running. Turn the adjustment screw until you feel drag, on the gauge, when you move it in and out. Lock it down and go to the next one. Yeah, it's a bit messy, w/the oil being thrown off the tappets, but it's quick and easy. I've mentioned this technique to a few friends, who know more than this backyard mechanic and got a general "bad idea" response but for no specific reason. Can anyone fill me in on why it's a bad idea or if it's not really a bad idea.
Thanks
PS: re hand turning the engine. I had an 18 mm nut welded on to the replacement crank bolt head, from Sunbeam Specialties. Use a long 3/8 socket extension placed through the hand crank hole. Put the socket on the extension after extension is through the hole. Use 3/8 ratchet w/cheater or 1/2 ratchet w/adapter.

 

[Alpine 1789]

Can anyone fill me in on why it's a bad idea or if it's not really a bad idea.

I may have done something wrong, but I tried this many years ago and quickly got a chewed up feeler gauge.

 

[DanR]

I may have done something wrong, but I tried this many years ago and quickly got a chewed up feeler gauge.

You did do something wrong.... The gap on the tappet and valve stem was too tight! That is what did the gauge in for you

I adjusted valves in my 283, 327 348 ad 409 Chevy engine all the time while the engines were running. Yep a bit messy at times but the valves were always correctly set.

 

[65beam]

This last Saturday while at the BASH, Tiger Tom gave a tech session on adjusting Alpine valves. The use of a flat feeler gauge is not the best way due to the wear on the bottom of the rocker arms. He recommends using drill stock of the proper size. He also says to set the valves at 10 & 12 with the engine hot.

 

[Ron67Alpine]

Thanks, Dan, Beam and Jim. I appreciate the replies. Yeah, Jim, I think you may have had it too tight. Only want it tightened until you feel a slight drag. 65Beam did you mean 0,010 and 0.012 in, instead of 0.012 and 0.014?

 

[65beam]

Thanks, Dan, Beam and Jim. I appreciate the replies. Yeah, Jim, I think you may have had it too tight. Only want it tightened until you feel a slight drag. 65Beam did you mean 0,010 and 0.012 in, instead of 0.012 and 0.014?

YES, that's what I said. TT had a rocker that is typical of the wear which shows why using 10 &12 is better if you don't have wire gauges.. IF you go to the TE/AE site and click on Tech Tips you'll find a lot of info along with Sunbeam updates for typical problems encountered in the 60's and Sunbeam's fix for the condition. Tech tip C24 is all about Alpine valve adjustment. It's a good read for Alpine owners and is based on facts.

 

[RootesRooter]

"...typical of the wear..." sounds like the crucial random variable. I'd sure check my rockers before going to 10 and 12 thou.

 

[65beam]

"...typical of the wear..." sounds like the crucial random variable. I'd sure check my rockers before going to 10 and 12 thou.

Dick,
Think about this. Pull a rocker arm and see if it wore even across the face that rides on the valve. Check the top of the valve and see if it's worn even. You'll find wear that can not be compensated for with a flat feeler guage. Gaps on both sides of the blade.That's the reason for using a wire guage. You're making a true adjustment using the wire. Common sense will tell you that if you're using a flat feeler to adjust then you still have the gap that is not measured with the flat blade. If you don't have a wire gauge then go to 10 &12 and you have done some compensation for the wear. Not an exact science but neither are these cars. You also have a quiet engine that will change after a few miles of driving. By the way, TT is not the only long term person in the Sunbeam repair business that thinks this way.

 

[Ron67Alpine]

Thanks for the replies and discussion. I'm essentially building a "new" engine. I got a NOS block from SS and had the head rebuilt w/the vizard mod. So I'm pretty sure the valve stem top is in good shape. I've pulled the rocker assembly off, quite a few times recently, 1 more time won't make any difference. I'll check the rocker face. I've, retorqued the head, after running it a few miles, and set the cold gaps, again. Just have to do the hot gap. Good idea about checking TE/AE site, I thought I did . I may have thought the tech bulletines were over here. No wonder, I couldn't find them, here. I'll get over and check them out. I really would have liked to get to BASH, again, this year, sounds like a good one, unfortunately reality didn't cooperate w/my time line. Don't want to have to leave my baby at TT's again.
video, engine running, before head retorque/cold valve adj. https://www.facebook.com/ron.jones.581/videos/vb.100000721326274/1964812043552821/?type=3

 

[hartmandm]

The TE/AE TSBs are missing diagrams. A better source is here: http://tardis.dl.ac.uk/ARCC/Bulletins/rsbmodel.html#rsb_alpine

Mike

 

[RootesRooter]

All very fine and good. But if I'm running a rocker set or valves of unknown origin, they could possibly be low-mileage. My point was: Unless you know your Alpine's history, don't assume your rockers are of average wear before you start tightening down the screws just to try to quiet the valve train. Burned valves are noooo fun.

Dick,
Think about this. Pull a rocker arm and see if it wore even across the face that rides on the valve. Check the top of the valve and see if it's worn even. You'll find wear that can not be compensated for with a flat feeler guage. Gaps on both sides of the blade.That's the reason for using a wire guage. You're making a true adjustment using the wire. Common sense will tell you that if you're using a flat feeler to adjust then you still have the gap that is not measured with the flat blade. If you don't have a wire gauge then go to 10 &12 and you have done some compensation for the wear. Not an exact science but neither are these cars. You also have a quiet engine that will change after a few miles of driving. By the way, TT is not the only long term person in the Sunbeam repair business that thinks this way.

 

[65beam]

There aren't many of us with low mileage or NOS rockers so go with the high odds that they're worn plus I've never known TT not to have a good view point on Beams and many long time owners have found that not all Sunbeam specs were right on the money. Maybe that's why there were so many bulletins published. As far as the TE/AE site I think you'll find a wealth of knowledge with a lot of it coming from folks that have lived with these cars for decades. There also is a thing called the "SUNBEAM SURVIVOR" that has a lot of info.

 

[owenrobertson]

Hi guys, I realize this is an old thread, but when I googled "Sunbeam Alpine valve adjustment", this is the first link that popped up, and there is some bad information here that needs to be addressed. You probably shouldn't adjust the Alpine's shaft style rockers while the engine is running, the person that suggested that is thinking of old small block Ford and Chevy style rockers, where the adjustment is at the center stud, that doesn't move, because it's the individual rocker's pivot point. It's messy, with oil shooting out everywhere, but you can do it on stud style rockers, and it is easy, and you'd do it by ear, not with a feeler gauge. Alpines don't have stud style rockers, they have shaft rockers like Ford FE and old Chrysler engines. With shaft rockers (the ones that are adjustable), your adjustment point is right above the pushrod, and with the engine running, that adjustment point is in motion, so you'd have a hell of a time trying to ride that thing up and down with your flat tip screwdriver and 1/2" box end, trying to make that delicate adjustment while the engine is running. Probably not impossible, but I wouldn't do it. Someone suggested trying to insert a feeler gauge between a running engine's rocker arm and valve, and that makes no sense at all, unless your goal is to destroy the feeler gauge between your rocker arm, and about 100 lbs of chomping spring pressure. To his credit, he did also ask the question, "Why is this a bad idea?"

On a side note, where do I find a .012" and .014" wire gauge? I understand the recommendation and the value of such a tool, but I can't find any wire gauge that's smaller than .020", so I went with my blade style feeler gauge, and went down to .010" intake / .012" exhaust, as recommended above. Thanks for that, it worked out just fine.

Here's the video I made: