Transmission lubricant

Alpineracer8 · Oct 29, 2007

Hey, guys:

I saw a thread on here a while back concerning transmission lube and it has prompted a question for me. I've got a Series I that I vintage race. It's been down for a while so that I could do the motor (and get married...).
Anyway, I've got it back together now. However, while I had it down, I switched from the Series V gearbox that was in it to a Series III with the closer ratio gear set. I was told that the transmission was ready to go but I'm having a heck of a time getting it to shift properly. It will shift up to all gears just fine but, try as I may, I cannot get it to shift down from third to second. In fact, I've got to come to a complete halt to get it to go into second from third. All it does is grind. A mechanic friend of mine suggested I use a Redline synthetic gear oil, I believe it's a 75W/90. However, I've checked the WSM and it recommends 30W gear oil.

My question is could the heavier gear oil be causing it to hang up going from third to second? It shifts from first to second just fine but there's no way it's going from third to second. I've been very, very careful not to make a mistake and stick it in reverse during the downshifting process, so I know it's not something goofy like that. Could it just be a worn out synchro? Could it maybe be a shifter alignment problem? What are you all running in your transmissions? Further more, what are some of you guys who are racing your Alpines running for transmission lubricant? I'm stumped!!!

Thanks for any help,

Wombat · Oct 29, 2007

Andy,

When i bought my SIV (all synchro), the synchros did not work well until the box warmed up. Draining the oil and refilling with 20W50 cured it. Don't know what oil was in there. Also didn't race the car.

Wrong oil in the gearbox is the simplest problem to fix. If changing the oil doesn't work, then there are problems in the box. Worn synchro is possible. Have you tried to double declutch on the downshift?

Nickodell · Oct 29, 2007

1) Don't use gear oil! There are several additives in this that make it unsuitable for the Alpine box. Also, when the designers and manufacturer specified engine oil, they probably knew what they were doing.

2) Q: Can you downshift by double declutching or, easier; when you attempt to downshift, does it help if you leave your foot an inch down on the gas pedal when you declutch, to allow the engine to speed up and manually sychronize the gears - the same way all drivers had to learn to do before synchromesh was invented. If this works, you just have weak, or non-functioning synchro.

3) What do you mean by "30W" oil? Are you referring to a special Winter grade of oil, which is what the W means in, e.g., 10W30, 20W40 etc?

Alpineracer8 · Oct 29, 2007

Robert & Nick:

I have tried double-clutching on the downshift and matching the revs just like you had to in the "old" days...no luck whatsoever. As far as "30W" oil, I'm talking about "30 weight" oil. I don't have my shop manual in front of me, but I think it specifies "Shell Spirax 30" or something like that, if I'm not mistaken. Of course, it's refering to 30 weight oil.

Does anyone else have any words of wisdom to add? I'm all ears!!!!

Thanks, as usual,

alpine_64 · Oct 29, 2007

Andy,

When you said the trans was ready to go... did you mean someone had rebuilt it or the previous owner said that it came from a running car? If changing the oil doesnt work then you most likely have an issue in the box.

If you are racing this box i would think that a proper rebuild would be a wise move, given its for racing where there will be much more stress any weakness is likely to show up fast. Alpine syncros on 2nd are not going to last if they are old, you may also want to consider stronger detent springs as well.. to notchy for street use, but will stand up to racing much better. Just my .02c.

serIIalpine · Oct 30, 2007

Royal purple makes transmission oil called "syncromax" and that is what I have in my series II.

I had put in heavier oil to quiet the box down and it shifted poorly. I switched to the RP and all is well.

Eric
'62 SerII

Nickodell · Oct 31, 2007

Andy: You haven't been with the forum long enough to know that oil "weight" is a running joke. We all have our phobias, and one of mine is using weight instead of SAE, which is the correct way to refer to the viscosity of an oil, i.e. SAE30, or SAE20W40, where the W doesn't mean weight, but winter.

In other words, an SAE 20W40 oil has additives that give it roughly the sanme viscosity, or flow, at 32 deg. F (0 deg. C) as if it were a straight SAE20 oil, and about the same viscosity at 212F (100C) as if it were a straight SAE40 oil. Same for 10W30, 30W50 etc.

However, in the Great Scheme of Things, it's not important. It just jars on me the same way that people using "lay" instead of "lie" does: e.g. "he was laying there." (Laying what; eggs? Bricks? Railroad track?) I don't think any worse of anyone just for using "weight." I just roll on the floor and bite pieces out of the rug.

65beam · Oct 31, 2007

oil weight

nick,
do you know what SAE is?

lemansvk · Oct 31, 2007

I have heard of many cases of Rootes cars with transmissions that were hard to change gears in which been cured by draining and refilling with engine oil, be it 30 or 20-50. The problem seems to arise when someone who is unfamiliar with the manufacturers specification assumes that because it is a transmission it needs the 80-90 grade oils commonly used in manual transmissions by GM, Ford etc.

So my advice would be change the oil first. If you still have problems, post again...

BTW in this context SAE = Society of Automotive Engineers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Automotive_Engineers

Cheers, Vic

jumpinjan · Oct 31, 2007

Alpineracer8 said:
...A mechanic friend of mine suggested I use a Redline synthetic gear oil, I believe it's a 75W/90. However, I've checked the WSM and it recommends 30W gear oil. ,

Redline gearbox oil is excellent (you can't go wrong), and as well as the "GM Synchromesh" gearbox oil that you can buy at a GM dealer (ask for '92 Achiva, vin "A" engine w/5 speed Getrag trans).
Please don't get sidetracked by the viscosity numbers. Engine numbers are on one scale; Gear oils on a different scale.
As an example, a 30 grade engine oil could have close to the same viscosity as a 90 grade gear oil.
Now remember this, do not use a hypoid (rear axle) gear oil.
Jan

Nickodell · Nov 25, 2007

65beam said:
nick,
do you know what SAE is?

Yes.

What do I win?

RootesRacer · Nov 25, 2007

jumpinjan said:
Redline gearbox oil is excellent (you can't go wrong), and as well as the "GM Synchromesh" gearbox oil that you can buy at a GM dealer (ask for '92 Achiva, vin "A" engine w/5 speed Getrag trans).
Please don't get sidetracked by the viscosity numbers. Engine numbers are on one scale; Gear oils on a different scale.
As an example, a 30 grade engine oil could have close to the same viscosity as a 90 grade gear oil.
Now remember this, do not use a hypoid (rear axle) gear oil.
Jan

Ive been meaning to post on this since recently I was recommended to use redline MTL in my jeep transmission, since the cold temp shifting had become clashy (poor syncro function). MTL is their lightest viscosity manual transmission lubricant, it also features the magic syncromesh additives.

This stuff is EXCELENT, it allows much faster shifts, the trans is more quiet ETC. One bad thing though was that a few days after I changed out from GL-3 was that it started weeping oil from the speedo sensor o-ring. Looks like
the o-rings were on their way out, but changing to synthetic hastened the failure (perhaps fewer seal swelling additives).

To add to what Jan said, you will want to use GL-3 or GL-4 spec transmission
lube, never GL-5, which has the sulfur additives which erode brass parts.

When I get my alpine back here, I am going to put some redline MTL in it too.

Wonder if you can use it in an OD?