This is what I'm moving towards

[serIIalpine]

This is the combustion chamber from a Toyota 4AGE engine.

I would imagine the benefits would be immediately apparent.

Jarrid,

I'm sure I'll be picking your brain when I finally pick one up.

Eric

'62 SerII

 

[RootesRacer]

Why exactly would you need my advice?
I already recommended the rootes piston approach.


You hell bent for 5 valves?

The 1.8 or 2.0T VW/Audi engine is more capable than the 4AGE and also has 5 valves. Big problem with the VW/Audi is no RWD trans exists.

 

[V6 JOSE]

He could have a bellhousing adapter made to fit a different transmission behind it, if he really wants to go with the VW engine.

Jose

Why exactly would you need my advice?
I already recommended the rootes piston approach.


You hell bent for 5 valves?

The 1.8 or 2.0T VW/Audi engine is more capable than the 4AGE and also has 5 valves. Big problem with the VW/Audi is no RWD trans exists.

 

[Chuck Ingram]

Looks great
One question
How do you get away with no bumpers.here we would be pulled over and get a ticket

 

[serIIalpine]

I have the bumpers now, freshly re-chromed.

These are the reasons I like the Toyota engine:

1.Fits in the Series II Engine compartment without loosing steering box.

2. Several RWD transmissions available including ones with TRD/Quaif gear sets.

3. It's a mod that gets me more performance and reliability at reasonable cost. Plus about 30mpg.

4. It's not so exotic or old that parts would be a problem.

5. I can effectively double my HP without doing any cutting or welding to my car.

By the way it's not the 5 valves I like about the 4AGE. It's the reasons above. They sure look cool though don't they!
The 4AGE was recommended to me by a lotus owner friend of mine as they are a popular engine for Cat 7's.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Alpine and the stockish engine yields lots of grins. But I've had my car break down twice, far from home, once with a valve that stuck/burned due to the poor lubrication the valve gear gets and once I blew my head gasket because until recently I couldn't find a machine shop that knew what they were doing.

I know that the more I modify my 1600 the less reliable it will become unless I spend some pretty serious money.

Who knows, I have a set of F16 emulsion tube on their way here and maybe they will make such an incredible difference that the idea of an engine swap will leave me.

As to you Jarrid,

If I get into any EFI tuning I'd like to know I could pick your brain.

Eric

'62 SerII

 

[RootesRacer]

As to you Jarrid,

If I get into any EFI tuning I'd like to know I could pick your brain.
Eric

'62 SerII

Better yet, buy my ECU.

I'll make you a hell of a deal.

 

[serIIalpine]

For my Alpine engine or the Toyota?

Eric

'62 SerII

 

[RootesRacer]

For my Alpine engine or the Toyota?

Eric

'62 SerII

Either, but especially the toyota.

 

[serIIalpine]

I would prefer to buy the Toyota engine with the stock ECU and start from there.

There is a mod you can do to get rid of the distributor which is located at the back of the engine and go to a crank triggered coil on plug ignition system that might be more than a simple swap.

Eric

 

[miket]

Eric,
the LoCost USA forums have lots of info on this engine. There is a site called quads4??? that sells a bellhousing for this engine, the Duratec and others. You'll find it on the LoCost site.

I saw the Austin again at Stowe that has this engine shoe horned in. I'll send you a photo if you're interested. He also has the turbo charger.

It looks like a really nice engine.

Mike

 

[RootesRacer]

I would prefer to buy the Toyota engine with the stock ECU and start from there.

There is a mod you can do to get rid of the distributor which is located at the back of the engine and go to a crank triggered coil on plug ignition system that might be more than a simple swap.

Eric

I cant help you then since you cant tune the stock ECU.

I thought that was the point (tuning).

And why on earth would you put that engine in there and EVEN consider keeping the distributor?

 

[serIIalpine]

I thought you could tune the stock ECU.

I know you can with motorcycles.

And If I don't have to why would I remove the distributor?

Thanks

Eric

'62 SerII

 

[RootesRacer]

I thought you could tune the stock ECU.

I know you can with motorcycles.

And If I don't have to why would I remove the distributor?

Thanks

Eric

'62 SerII

Not sure you can even with motorcycles, the OEMs dont want you to be able to muck with tuning with emissions and all. I know lots of people who swap out what came with stock motorcycles for pretty high end racecar type engine management, so if the OEM systems are tunable, clearly its not enough.

Back to car engines.
There are some systems for hondas (hondata), GM (EFIlive) and ford (diablosport) that allow limited tuning changes. Nothing that would be the equivalent to jetting a carb, or putting in a whole new ignition curve.
You can also "chip" a generic tune into most factory ECUs, which allows the engine perform in a less compromised fashion, granted you have zero tuning ability, its one size fit all.

Distributors are a weak link in ignition, they reduce available plug energy, if they themselves perform the ignition timing, they introduce additional sources of error and spark timing scatter.

Crank triggered distributor ignition (the way all modern engines are designed today) allows a much greater degree of timing accuracy, no energy loss across rotor to cap gaps, no rotor to cap phasing issues, no unneeded moving parts. Engine coil dwell is multiplexed across multiple coils so spark energy is adequate to formula one engine speeds.
I could go on and on...

 

[64beam]

Hi Eric,

Following is a picture of what your engine could look like if you choose the Toyota route. This car is located in Australia and I think it was putting out approximately 130Kw's. Note the distributorless ignition on the firewall. It has a very nice custom intake as well.

Regards, Robin.

 

[fj55mike]

Eric,
I have a 4age 20V Black top that I'm working on putting into the Sunbeam. I have finally gathered most of the parts to do the conversion, and I am stripping the engine bay and cleaning up the tranny right now. As soon as I start doing interesting things, I'll take some pictures and post them up.

One reason I like the 4age is that it's very similar in weight to the Rootes mill, and it's one of the physically smallest late-model twin cam engine, similar to a zetec and much smaller than a Duratec.

The ECU is not tunable, but there are several people on club4ag who are running megasquirt successfully. Many are also controlling spark using Ford EDIS-4 without a distributor.

Club 4AG
4AG Swap

 

[the ghoul]

my friend has a write up on how to put together a 300hp toyota 4cylinder using all stock toyota parts (except for a porche timing belt)... I know for sure they used a 4age head.. Ill see if I can hound him for it if your intrested

 

[serIIalpine]

I really don't think I'll get into to much heavy tuning as I'm looking for reliable HP that fits in the small area and doesn't upset the nice balance our Alpines already have.

I'm up for all info though so feel free to send anything my way.

This is a useful website:

http://www.billzilla.org/4agmods.htm


Eric

'62 SerII

 

[Jeff Scoville]

Not sure you can even with motorcycles, the OEMs dont want you to be able to muck with tuning with emissions and all. .

Not to argue, but I know for a fact that in any newer EFI Harley, when you change the air box and exhaust, they retune your ECM in some fashion so as to not lean out the motor. Not sure exactly what or how they do it but I do know it did make a difference on mine, and there was no parts charge for the $250.00, 5 minute job!

Just a bit of info to offer, nothing else.

 

[RootesRacer]

Nor to argue back, but such trivial changes to the breathing of an engine wont affect tuning on anything but a TPS sensor mapped (alpha N) tuned engine anyhow. Most any real ECU has got to be able to allow for elevation/baro change without messing up the air fuel ratio, and lessening the intake restriction is much like driving to a lower elevation at a given load level.

Ive seen aftermarket ECUs for harleys that you can tune for if you do some serious changes such as camming. If harley ECUs do have adjustabilty, I doubt it would involve mapping, which is what you need to be able to alter in the event of any significant alteration of the volumetric efficiency curve.

Tuning the map is not something that would be done in 5 minutes, perhaps re-flashing it (chipping) is what could be done in that cost/time regime.

 

[Jeff Scoville]

Tuning the map is not something that would be done in 5 minutes, perhaps re-flashing it (chipping) is what could be done in that cost/time regime.

I honestly am completely uneducated as to how any of that stuff works, But when you mentioned bikes it just caught what I assumed was a related issue.
The "5 minute" comment was an exageration, it truely was just over an hour of actuall shop time. From what I understand they have the capability to "tune" your ECM much the same way you would re-jet a carb, but all things being equal, changes in elevation, temperature and such aren,t considered. Once set it's set, much like Jetting.

I'm still blown away being in the staging lanes at Great Lakes Dragway, Union Grove Wisconcin, and seeing all the "youngsters" tuning they're cars from the passenger seat via a laptop, rather than being under the hood. It's just not right to me some how, although I'm sure much easier and effective if the keypad operator knows what they're doing.

Time marches on.