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The Journey Begins - Series I V6 Restomod

Bill Eisinger

Platinum Level Sponsor
My body guy is back in business after having to take some time off from having his appendix out. Rust repair is moving ahead. The attached photos illustrate some of that including transferring a rear valence and partial trunk floor from a donor car...the original piece had been whacked pretty hard and was pretty rusted to the point where patching in an entire piece made more sense than repairing the original. Also getting ready to repair the inner rockers....we started with a left over set from a Mustang project and cut them down to fit...the holes are to facilitate welding access...there are also some internal braces added between the rocker walls....stronger than any factory car! I'll post some pictures on the front end in a few days....currently finishing up the fab on a custom valence...it will look fairly close to factory (minus center hole) but will be much stronger and facilitate20200103_122253_1578432983911.jpeg 20200103_143323_1578432984839.jpeg 20200103_145504_1578432981807.jpeg air flow much better.
 

Bill Eisinger

Platinum Level Sponsor
More progress...doing quite a few modifications that will result in a stronger car. In addition to new floors we've boxed and reinforced the x-frame, added the penetration to accommodate dual exhaust, beefed up the connection between the leaf spring hanger and the x-frame, and added some structure under the floors to accommodate mounts for the Mazda Miata seats that will be going in the car. Initial fitting of a new fuel tank is done. Also have done some of the structure modifcationIMG_1935.jpg under the dash to accommodate the new Heat/AC box. In case anyone is interested the front floor material came from Dave Lamonte...we fabbed the rear floors ourselves. Going forward we've decided to move the battery to the trunk to make more space for the second muffler...also considering another penetration through the x-frame to allow for a straight run of the brake line rather than snaking it around like stock. We are getting close to engine and transmission mockup...hopefully, within the next couple of weeks.
 

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Hillman

Gold Level Sponsor
If you could post a couple more pics of the exhaust pass thru, I'd appreciate it. The tubing thru the 2 XS members is what I'd like.

Out of curiosity, it looks like you put one long tube thru both X members rather than 2 shorter ones. Any particular reason?
 

Bill Eisinger

Platinum Level Sponsor
[QUOTE="Out of curiosity, it looks like you put one long tube thru both X members rather tha 2 shorter ones. Any particular reason?[/QUOTE]

Well, it visually matches what was already on the other side plus it adds a bit of lateral strength between the two x's. That's about the only decent picture I have of the pass through...I'll post some more if I get a chance to take some.
 

Alpine 1789

SAOCA President
Diamond Level Sponsor
...and added some structure under the floors to accommodate mounts for the Mazda Miata seats that will be going in the car...
Can you post some photos of what you are doing there. I see you haven't replaced the stock mounts but don't see your under floor structure. How are you attaching them?
 

Bill Eisinger

Platinum Level Sponsor
We haven’t got to the shock mounts yet...it’s an SI car but we’re putting in an SV suspension. The upper shock mounts will be geometrically in the correct location but we’re looking to incorporate them into a cross brace that will also add a little more structure to the car. Once we get to that I’ll post some pictures.

As far as the seat mounts go...you can see the metal strips under the floor pans...we’re planning on mounting the seats with thru-floor bolts and those strips give us a little more structure for the bolts
 

Bill Eisinger

Platinum Level Sponsor
A little more progress...rockers replaced/repaired and patch panels welded in. Here's a "before" and "after" of what we were dealing with...I believe I mentioned in an earlier post we discovered that vintage Mustang outer rockers work as a nice source for replacements....they required a bit of trimming to fit...nothing major...and the car will be significantly stronger than ever envisioned at the factory.
 

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Bill Eisinger

Platinum Level Sponsor
Today was a big day. Started the mockup process for the 2.8l V6 and the A4LD transmission. As usual, a few snags popped up. Working through a few issues with the transmission mount location but nothing a bit of “cutting and pasting” can’t solve! I’ve been on the phone all day with DanR and he couldn’t have been more helpful. In addition to the engine/transmission engineering we’re also about finished with the addition of a new 16 gallon fuel tank.
 

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Rockonp04

Donation Time
I would do your research on the EFI from Fitech. I've done a ton of research and the Offenhauser intake is a two-stage intake, meaning it uses only 2 of the 4 openings during normal driving and 4 when you are giving it the business. The Fitech does not support this two-stage system and the engine is well below the duty cycle of the injectors. If you are considering EFI, I would consider the 2 barrel EFI from Holley. The original 2 barrel intake manifold can be used for this but you will have to custom make a plate for the Holley 2 barrel since there was a bunch of emission stuff on the intake. I've done a lot of research and time spent talking to techs from Fitech, MSD, and Holley. The engine just doesn't pull enough vacuum to be useful for the 4 barrel setup.
 

Bill Eisinger

Platinum Level Sponsor
Not sure I understand...a dual plane intake is the common choice for street applications...nothing unusual about that. I too have talked to Fitech and have not received similar info....but they are notorious for poor customer service so anything is possible.

There are many folks here on the forum reporting excellent results with the offy intake and the Holley 390 carb which has vacuum secondaries….if there's enough vacuum to operate the conventional mechanical carb then it seems like there should be enough for FI....or are all the users of the Holley 390's not receiving the benefit of the 4 barrel setup? At the least, I would think that that a Sniper EFI would work as it's pretty much a direct replacement for Holley mechanical carbs. In browsing around various forums its reported that a Sniper works well with as little as 6" of vacuum at idle...I would think that the 2.8L V6 would produce every bit of that and more.

What am I missing here?
 

Bill Eisinger

Platinum Level Sponsor
So I dug into a bit more....its not a lack of manifold vacuum that is the problem. The issue with a dual plane intake is due to the airflow sensors in the throttle body only seeing a signal from one bank of intake runners and not working properly. The common fix is to add a 1" spacer under the throttle body to allow the airflow from both banks of the intake to reach the sensors. However, in the case of a Holley Sniper the two rear throttle bores are connected and share the signal from both sides of the intake even on a dual plane so it shouldn't be a problem for that particular EFI. Not sure if this is the case with a Fitech or not.

When I get to the point of building my engine we'll be dyno tuning it so we can sort it all out at that point....If a spacer under the carb is required that may present clearance issues to the hood....another alternative is to machine the intake so that the two banks have cross flow.
 

Bill Eisinger

Platinum Level Sponsor
I've done a lot of research and time spent talking to techs from Fitech, MSD, and Holley .

One more follow-up...I contacted Ethan Moss at Holley technical support...provided him with details regarding my proposed build and here is his response:

"I've used the 4150 4bbl Sniper on applications with 175hp with great results, you should be fine. The Sniper uses a proprietary annular ring for fuel delivery above the throttle blades. Other throttle body systems with injectors below the throttle blades do require a single plane or milled divider dual plane intake or an open spacer, but the Sniper is fine to use with a untouched dual plane intake and no spacer is required."

I haven't heard back from Fitech yet...but their Go Street 400 unit is spec'd to be applicable for engines down to 150 hp...other than perhaps having to deal with the cross air flow issue one way or another, I don't see an issue with it either.
 

Rockonp04

Donation Time
One more follow-up...I contacted Ethan Moss at Holley technical support...provided him with details regarding my proposed build and here is his response:

"I've used the 4150 4bbl Sniper on applications with 175hp with great results, you should be fine. The Sniper uses a proprietary annular ring for fuel delivery above the throttle blades. Other throttle body systems with injectors below the throttle blades do require a single plane or milled divider dual plane intake or an open spacer, but the Sniper is fine to use with a untouched dual plane intake and no spacer is required."

I haven't heard back from Fitech yet...but their Go Street 400 unit is spec'd to be applicable for engines down to 150 hp...other than perhaps having to deal with the cross air flow issue one way or another, I don't see an issue with it either.
The problem is the Offenhauser is not a dual plane, it is a dual-port. It's not a dual plane which feeds different cylinders, it is essentially two manifolds in one. What makes the 4 barrel work is that it is a two-stage setup. The Offenhauser works in the two-stage setup. The first stage works well in the lower RPM and the second stage works at the higher RPM range. The Holley of Fitech are not two-stage setups like the 390 Holley 4 barrel. I'd suggest a conversation with an Offenhauser tech. The link below clarifies the dual-port setup.

Also see the thread I started a while back.

http://forum.sunbeamalpine.org/index.php?threads/vacuum-cfm-for-2-8l-v6.27862/page-2

http://offenhauser.co/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Offenhauser-Catalog-1987.pdf
 

Bill Eisinger

Platinum Level Sponsor
I don't want to rain on your parade, but I wanted you to know what the EFI entails before you make a $2k purchase. Your build does look nice.
Nothing like rain on a convertible!

Still not giving up....the Offy intake will obviously flow better than the stock so that’s a no brainer to stay with it. I dug a little deeper and discovered that an outfit called EFI systems sells a progressive linkage adapter for the Sniper that allows the primaries and secondaries to operate separately like a mechanical carb...the tuning then has to be done via lap top rather than the self mode but that’s where my engine guy comes in!

Ethan at Holley also suggested the alternative of milling the intake to create a common plenum area....he wasn’t certain if that would be the solution for the V6 intake but said it works well for the Offy inline 6 intake. In lieu of that he suggested adding an open plenum adapter and going with the Holley 2 barrel EFI....sort of what you proposed but staying with the better flowing intake.

Did you investigate any of those approaches?
 

260Alpine

Silver Level Sponsor
2 barrel Sniper on Ranger ported intake would be simpler and give more hood clearance. When I get my flow bench going I can compare the intakes and I think you will be surprised. I tried the Offy dual port on a Buick V6 and a Weiand single plane on the same motor. The Offy had a smoother idle and better low speed throttle response. The single plane pulled harder after 2000RPM.
 
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