The Future of Gas Powered Cars for Hobbyists

[Alpine 1789]

The Fisker was the only one that made sense to me working like a diesel electric train.. The petrol motor charged the battery and the electirc motor drove the wheels... So you could run the combustion engine at a constant rpm to charge when needed and the electic motor did the drive.. You stop and refill fuel when your onbaord charging station runs low on fuel... Super efficent.. Used current fuel supply... Solved range and charge speed issues.

GM did the same thing in the States with the Chevy Volt. I think it failed because they did a crappy job marketing it. The advertised it as an electric vehicle and got skewered because it used gasoline. I always thought they should have embraced the idea and called it an electric car that carried its own generator. But, no one asked me...

 

[Bill Blue]

Here in Bakersfield all the UPS routes were less then 50 miles on all flat ground and it still did not work and UPS lost $300,000 on EVs.
P.S. we don't even have cool days that battery's don't like.

When was this? What was the battery chemistry?

 

[Hillman]

I'm up here in the frozen north where we have lots of geography and not many people (population 1.1M in an area bigger than Texas). Our province is the world's largest source of uranium and a big O&G producer. We also have 40% of Canada's farm land. We also have a very large power dam.

A year and a bit ago (before Covid naturally), I was at an Xmas gathering at a neighbour's place. There were several engineers there and the conversation got around to electrifying the province. The consensus was that to convert all heating, agriculture & transportation to electricity would require about 500% increase in electrical use. Well, when a new power line is proposed, it takes 2 -5 years to get it built because of greenies, nimby's and others. To expand the grid 500% in 30 years would be impossible, nor would it be possible to supply the electrons with wind/solar. As well, there is no way that anything but diesel fuel will keep a tractor in the field for 20 hours/day at seeding and harvest. I expect to have easy access to gasoline for my Sunbeam until I die at 100.

While I'm not an engineer, I have a degree in chemistry and understand the laws of thermodynamics. I agree. While it's possible that in 20 years you may not be able to find a source of gasoline in Socal or NYC, I think the 5 or 6 Sunbeams (that I know of) in our province will have lots of fuel.

 

[Tom H]

Be sure to watch the 5 min video Toyanvil posted above. It points out what several other articles I have read confirm, that electric vehicles will only reduce carbon if and when we have nearly 100% clean electricity production. Solar and wind are a long way from being a solid source. Nuclear fusion, if ever conquered, would definitely move us heavily to EV's. But there still seems to me there will still be a need for Internal combustion vehicles for long hauls, and other purposes. There may be more innovation in batteries, but the watt-hours needed to travel will always need to be re-charged with the same number of watt- hours but over a shorter time which means higher current, which requires larger cables, and cable (and recharge connector) size will be the limiting factor. I have not yet seen any reasonable approach to EV's paying their fair share of the cost of highways. That's going to be a part of the 50 year transition that jdclogan describes.

Tom

 

[Bill Blue]

Ahh, yes. Another video brought to you by the American Petroleum Institute. A very one sided presentation, taking conditions of the moment and projecting them forward for the next 40 hears. As an example, "EV's are coal powered". But coal produced only 23% of USA electricity and 39% world wide in 2019. Plus many other things.

Believe at your own peril.

Bill

 

[Tom H]

Bill, I understand your comments. I was a bit surprised to see that coal has dropped from 39% in 2014 to 23 % in 2019. As a railroad buff I have been aware of decreased coal loads by RR's but had not thought it was that steep. But note that coal has mostly been replaced by oil, which is still a CO2 producer. but with less particulate and smoggy exhaust. The other major chunk comes from nuclear. I think the EV advocates have also been deceivers, in talking about "zero emissions" of the vehicle while ignoring any emissions in producing the electricity. As EV's become more common we will see an increase in electric demand and with all the anti nuclear sentiment I'm not so sure we will not be adding more oil burning power plants. I'll have to search again, but a few years ago I read a scientific article that showed EV's used in US areas with heavy electric power dependence on fossil fuels, EV's actually increased CO2 emissions. On a macro level it seems we should be able to better control emissions in just thousands of power plants more readily that in millions of vehicles, but lots of work ahead to get there. In the meantime I think we will be able to get gasoline for our Alpines during our (and our kids) lifetimes. But I see very few millennials at cruise-ins and British car days.

Tom

 

[RootesRacer]

I did a project around 20 years ago with a hydrogen powered electric generator system, I was doing the engine management side.
Hydrogen is a fickle fuel once you get around the danger aspects and requires a far larger cooling system than a gasoline or LPG powered vehicle, the mixtures burn much faster than the above fuels so the ignition timing becomes very critical. The aluminum head on the test sled melted several times and the customer gave up on the project.

I can only see hydrogen as a viable storage solution in cases where you need a very low emissions power source and a continuous surplus of electricity (like the electricity was going to go to waste).
Any other scenario and hydrogen as a energy store does not make sense.

 

[John W]

This is an interesting article... https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a35367888/the-eternal-promise-of-solid-state-batteries/

I don't think we'll ever burn all the gas we have. A hundred years from now, houses and cars will be self sufficient on solar charged batteries, and great grand kids will debate whether to keep the cheap gas engine and moonstone white, or go for the solar paint job.

Then there's always Yogi Berra to consider. "It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future."

 

[Aladin Sane]

Bill, I understand your comments. I was a bit surprised to see that coal has dropped from 39% in 2014 to 23 % in 2019. As a railroad buff I have been aware of decreased coal loads by RR's but had not thought it was that steep. But note that coal has mostly been replaced by oil, which is still a CO2 producer. but with less particulate and smoggy exhaust. The other major chunk comes from nuclear. I think the EV advocates have also been deceivers, in talking about "zero emissions" of the vehicle while ignoring any emissions in producing the electricity. As EV's become more common we will see an increase in electric demand and with all the anti nuclear sentiment I'm not so sure we will not be adding more oil burning power plants. I'll have to search again, but a few years ago I read a scientific article that showed EV's used in US areas with heavy electric power dependence on fossil fuels, EV's actually increased CO2 emissions. On a macro level it seems we should be able to better control emissions in just thousands of power plants more readily that in millions of vehicles, but lots of work ahead to get there. In the meantime I think we will be able to get gasoline for our Alpines during our (and our kids) lifetimes. But I see very few millennials at cruise-ins and British car days.

Tom

The reason for the drop in coal usage is mostly because of the cheap natural gas made available by fracking.

 

[Tom H]

John, That article shows that newer batteries are a big promise and I would not be surprised to see some breakthroughs there, much like all the sold state breakthroughs we have seen over the past 60 years, like semiconductors, Integrated circuits, microprocessors, solid state memory and high brightness LEDs. But I do not see how they will find a solution to reasonably fast charging. Maybe with small enough batteries they can put 600 miles worth of charge in the vehicle, close to the limit of what most humans would want. Then take 5 or 10 hours to charge. Maybe have two recharge ports for faster charging? Maybe most of us will have multiple kinds of cars. Local electric, Long distance electric. (or rentals for that?) Maybe there will be big wholesale changes in how we travel. More high speed rail or Tubes, with electric cars to rent at every station, almost like the scooters we now see in cities. I also envision people doing long distance travel, overnight, in self driving cars, travelling while sleeping just like in the heyday of Pullman rail travel. Lots of possibilities. Let's see how Texas handles their electric issues!

 

[Tom H]

The reason for the drop in coal usage is mostly because of the cheap natural gas made available by fracking.

Yes, I meant to say "oil and gas" as replacing coal. But I think gas still has large CO2 emissions. so we are still over 50% fossil fuel and 25% nuclear. We have added little or no nuclear in past decades, so I don't see the CO2 going away with electric vehicles.

 

[sunalp]

The one thing that no one even looks at in this country is the infrastructure, or lack of one. We are light years away from what Europe
and Japan ( and probably China too) with their high speed trains. We keep looking at the small solutions to large
problems and think that they will "fix" everything.

We need to start looking at the really big picture if we're going to lead the world.

 

[Aladin Sane]

Yes, I meant to say "oil and gas" as replacing coal. But I think gas still has large CO2 emissions. so we are still over 50% fossil fuel and 25% nuclear. We have added little or no nuclear in past decades, so I don't see the CO2 going away with electric vehicles.

There is a Tesla that drives around my community with a license plate that reads ZEROCO2. I would really like to have a chat with him and see if he has any idea where his electricity is coming from.

 

[Bill Blue]

Tom, natural gas has the highest hydrogen content (and lowest co2 production) of all the fossil fuels. So today's EV really does have low CO2 emissions, even when when the ultimate energy source is considered.

A battery that could solve all of the current battery problems, especially range, is the flow battery. Haven't heard much about the technology for several years.

As a country we depend too much on the "free market" to solve all our problems. That leads to cheap, short term solutions. Not the way to build a civilization.

Bill

 

[husky drvr]

California government evaluation of electric delivery trucks:


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...stration.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3lqc2ZPMqmLQpy2QNC7Xf7

 

[Toyanvil]

When was this? What was the battery chemistry?

It was last month they stopped using the EVs, I don't know what batteries they used. They come to my work two times a day, and the funny thing is the EV are noisier they the diesel.

 

[Tom H]

Bill, Yes, natural gas emits about 40% less CO2 than coal. That's good, but still nowhere near Zero.

And your point about the need for a better battery to get more range, will likely be met, in my opinion, before too long. But I still wonder about the problem of charging. Regardless of the battery used, you need to put into it as many watt hours as needed, which translates to Ampere Hours, which translates to hours of charging time. I'm assuming charging systems are presently using the maximum practical charging current.

 

[Bill Blue]

Tom, flow batteries are not recharged. The flow "battery" could be better described by calling it a reaction chamber. Charged electrolyte is stored in a tank, pumped through the reaction chamber, then stored in another tank. The battery is "recharged" by filling the tank with charged electrolyte and emptying the tank of spent electrolyte which it then recharged for the next fillup.

Sort of cruised through the California test report. Very interesting read. It appears the technology is mature enough that sections of the report read more like a comparison of E Truck models instead E Truck vs. Fossil fuel trucks! Battery failure is not an issue. But a very interesting read. Thanks husky drvr.

Bill

 

[RootesRacer]

Tom, flow batteries are not recharged. The flow "battery" could be better described by calling it a reaction chamber. Charged electrolyte is stored in a tank, pumped through the reaction chamber, then stored in another tank. The battery is "recharged" by filling the tank with charged electrolyte and emptying the tank of spent electrolyte which it then recharged for the next fillup.

Sort of cruised through the California test report. Very interesting read. It appears the technology is mature enough that sections of the report read more like a comparison of E Truck models instead E Truck vs. Fossil fuel trucks! Battery failure is not an issue. But a very interesting read. Thanks husky drvr.

Bill

"Flow" batteries sound interesting from a range standpoint, but the depleted electrolyte still needs recharged and that energy has to come from somewhere. At present there is not enough capacity nationwide to support the (I saw a cool youtube video that provided these numbers) 500% increase in electrical grid capacity needed to allow us to achieve full electric transport ability.

Also and very little info seems to exist on this but the amount of carbon emissions during manufacture our daily goods is also a big question as to if we will be able to be truly free of fossil fuels. Aluminum, Lithium, Iron ore and many other raw materials require a tremendous amount of energy puling them from the ground and then refining them as finished materials. It would be nice to receive unbiased information on how much CO2 emissions are the result of making the raw materials to make something like a Tesla. Carbon tax is a sham, buying carbon credits to offset manufacturing emisions cannot be used in the equation or the numbers are bogus.

Lets also remember that Petroleum is the chemical source for nearly all plastics, but that's an entirely different issue albeit probably more solvable at a some price.

 

[spmdr]

Jarrid, what do you think about some version of an Altra-capacitor as a future replacement for Batteries?


Yup, "Great" ideologies and practicalities rarely meet at a close/near by intersection.

I don't see the steps to provide the electric power needed..

And hold on to your wallet with what ever gets cooked up to replace gas taxes...