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temp sending unit impedance value

ForzaDesign

Donation Time
I just bought a new temp sending unit from SS. My car immediately to show extremely hot temps. I compared the impedance value of the new against the old one and the results as follows?
Original is 1.08Ω at 20K scale
New is .88Ω at 20K scale
Does anyone know what the real value should be to make the Smith Jeager temp gauge read correctly?

Thanks,
Jim
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
which car is it for, there is a difference between the early and late as there is the instrument regulator on the late systems.
 

sunbby

Past SAOCA President
Donation Time
I just bought a new temp sending unit from SS. My car immediately to show extremely hot temps. I compared the impedance value of the new against the old one and the results as follows?
Original is 1.08Ω at 20K scale
New is .88Ω at 20K scale

What temperature are the sensors when you're measuring? And how are you measuring? What else is connected when you're measuring? Regardless, early or late Series, even 1 ohm seems way too small. At very hot, 15 ohms would be more normal. Sounds like something is shorted?
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
What temperature are the sensors when you're measuring? And how are you measuring? What else is connected when you're measuring? Regardless, early or late Series, even 1 ohm seems way too small. At very hot, 15 ohms would be more normal. Sounds like something is shorted?

He's running an old school ohmeter, the scale will go from 0 to 20, so on the 20k scale, this would read in kohms.
 

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Jim,

It depends on what temp the sensor is at. Assuming we are speaking of a later Series sensor (SIV or SV) the temp sensor at room temp – well below 50 C (about 25 C or 78F) should be several hundred ohms (500 ohms or so). If the temp sensor reads over 1000 Ohms at room temp, it is probably defective. But the best test is to measure it while it is setting in boiling water. At 100 Deg (boiling water) a Temp sensor should be at about 40-45 ohms.

As Rootes Racer notes, we assume you are reading 0.88K, or 880 ohms, on the 20 k range, with the new one, so it sounds like the new one is OK. But better if you test it in boiling water. Use a clip to make contact at least to the terminal , keep the clip attached while it is submerged in the boiling water for a minute or so. Then turn off the heat and use a probe to make contact with the body of the sensor, while it is still submerged. You should read about 40-45 ohms. You might be surprised at how quickly it cools off - and the ohms goes up.

Tom
 

Barry

Diamond Level Sponsor
Not sure I am answering the right question, but Rootes used the Stewart Warner standard for gauges and senders; 240 0hms = minimum and 33 Ohms = maximum.
 

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Barry, That's interesting. I had not heard or read of that standard. But did the S-W standard expect a 12.6V or 14.5 V supply? Or did it expect the 10.8V that the Voltage Stabilizer produced. My own tests, based on the average of 3 gauges was that it takes 35 mA to read minimum (the 2 dots just below 50 Deg), 78 mA for mid scale (the 2 dots at 85 Deg) and 122 mA at full scale (the 2 dots just above 120 Deg) . Assuming the 10.8V supply from the Voltage stabilizer and 61 ohms in the gauge itself, this calculates to about 250 Ohms at min, 77 ohms at mid scale, and 28 ohms at full scale. But none of these numbers helps test a sensor. Best to measure it at a readily achievable calibration point, like 100 Deg boiling water. Easier yet to test at "room temp" of 25 C, but we are hard pressed to find what is the expected value at 25C, especially since that temp is not even measured or displayed by the gauge.

And yes, the voltage output of the stabilizer is more like 10.8 V and not 10.0 as many have assumed. I have tested several and find, as others have, that the output voltage is about 10 V "average", as measured with a DC voltmeter. But the gauges work by way of a heating element, which reponds the the "RMS" voltage and not the "average". The "RMS" value is the "heating value" of any voltage and takes into account the "AC" or "Alternating" portion of the voltage as the stabilizer pulses ON and OFF. So there is a sum of an average DC plus some AC and it totals to about 10.8 V

Tom
 

ForzaDesign

Donation Time
Guys,
As usual.... great feedback! Even for an engineer this is a lot of information from different view points.
For some clarity, my measurements were taken at room temp. lets say 70°F. Car is a SV. sounds like there may not be a straight answer. although i will say when the car was designed there had to be an impedance value in mind in order to fabricate components with any repeatability. I can assume that gauges will vary with age and as Tom has mentioned the voltage values are bound to walk a bit. What I would like to know is if I have the temp sender in 85°C water what does it take to get my gauge to read 85°.

Thanks,
Jim
 

sunbby

Past SAOCA President
Donation Time
Some time ago I was curious about the SV sender characteristics and after ordering a replacement from one of the suppliers (can't remember which one) I emailed the manufacturing company's tech support. Here's what I got back.


The information we have about this part is that at 25deg C = 650 Ohms and at 100deg C = 43 Ohms
The Thread is 5/8†UNF and it replaces Smiths TT-4802/00A
You can see this part www.smpeurope.com and click on Partfinder. If you put in 52720 part number a photo and applications will be shown.

Regards
Henry Taylor
Product Manager
Standard Motor Products Europe Ltd
 

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Jim, with your temp sender submerged in a pan of water that is at 85 deg, if you measure the sensor it should be about 77 Ohms ( +/- 5?) .

If it measures about 77 ohms and you then install it in your car and connect the wires, and get to car warmed up to 85 and the gauge does not read 85 then the problem is in the gauge or the Voltage stabilizer.

To check the volatge stabilizer, do these steps:
disconnect the wire from the sensor and measure the Volatge between the wire and ground. It should be pulsing ON/ OFF at about 1 or 2 times per second. If you use an analog meter you should see this as the meter needle going up and then down. If you use a digital meter it may look like the display is a random number generator and not be very useful. :mad:

If instead you see a steady voltage of about 12-14, then your voltage stabilizer is not working and the applied voltage will be too high and both your Temp and Fuel gauges will be reading too high.

If you see a pulsing voltage then it appears your voltage stabilizer is probably working correctly. Unfortunately it is quite difficult to measure the average or RMS voltage output of the stabilizer with common tools. The pulsing is too slow for most instruments to be able to average out. But in general, if the voltage is pulsing, you probably have the correct output voltage.

So if the sensor seems right and the voltage stabilizer seems right and yet the gauge reads too low or too high, then most likely the gauge is off. They can be checked independently using a calibrated current source. And they can be adjusted. I have seen some write ups and I have tried to do some adjusting, without much success. There are two adjustments, accessed through the holes in the rear of the gauge - it seems one sets the low end and one adjusts the high end. But how to adjust and how much they interact I have not figured out yet.

Tom
 

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Todd,
DYNOMITE! I've been trying to find that data for 3 years! Based on my measurement of 3 gauges and tests on the voltage stabilizer to determine the 10.8 V RMS output, I concluded that at 100 C the sensor should be at about 40 to 45 ohms, and that's what I posted. Now you have provided factory specs that say 43 ohms at 100 Deg. Damn, I am good! And the specs at 25 C are what we really need and I have no way to calculate that, so this is super info. Amazing what you can find by asking the right people!!! Great move, Thanks,

Tom

P.S. I just checked the site you ref and I don't think they make that part # any more. But your info was just what we needed. Glad you kept the info and shared it here,
 

Chazbeam

Silver Level Sponsor
AT 100 ohms my meter reads straight TDC

SO i have had this problem also but in reverse,,,
Seems i have a sender unit that goes from 10k at air temp to maybe 6k hot..I was never getting any reading and went nuts trying to Figure out why? SO i have the wrong sender in place... the sender is right for some other cars because those numbers come out right when i compare...

When i used a resistor network box connected to the sender line and ground.
I have one for doing electronics design it gave me a reading of 100 ohms at center "TDC" needle deflection. About 180 deg F (82c) I have two temp meters and they read the same...(Thought the original was bad)
A temp check of the engine hot was around 180F and i think that was my thermostat ratting if i remember correctly...

Inside the cover of the meter when i took one apart it had on the side in small white print "TT-4802/00A" this matches what sunbby said....

So its good to know those resistance measurements check out and that the right sender should give me the right reading...

thanks guys for figuring all that out...Great work...Hope all this Info helps someone else...

Cheers
 

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Chaz, thanks for posting your results, but it is confusing to me. According to your profile, you have a Series 2. If so, and if it has original gauges, they are different than the SIV and SV gauges which is what Sunby's and most of the other posts are about. It makes no sense that your S2 gauges have a note TT-4802/00A, since everything I have read, including VB and SS catalogs says the earlier gauges use a different sender.

On the other hand, if you are using SV gauges, then it seems to me that the resistance you determined for mid scale reading are too high. A SV gauge should read mid scale with a sender resistance of 77 ohms or so, not 100. If you are using SV gauges, you should also be using the SV Voltage stabilizer, which reduces the voltage to an average of about 10 V. Not using the stabilizer would account for the 100 vs 77 ohms difference.

I Have not been able to find any data on the SII/ SII/ SIII senders or gauges, nor any to test.

Tom
 

Chazbeam

Silver Level Sponsor
Im confused too!

Chaz, thanks for posting your results, but it is confusing to me. According to your profile, you have a Series 2. If so, and if it has original gauges, they are different than the SIV and SV gauges which is what Sunby's and most of the other posts are about. It makes no sense that your S2 gauges have a note TT-4802/00A, since everything I have read, including VB and SS catalogs says the earlier gauges use a different sender.

On the other hand, if you are using SV gauges, then it seems to me that the resistance you determined for mid scale reading are too high. A SV gauge should read mid scale with a sender resistance of 77 ohms or so, not 100. If you are using SV gauges, you should also be using the SV Voltage stabilizer, which reduces the voltage to an average of about 10 V. Not using the stabilizer would account for the 100 vs 77 ohms difference.

I Have not been able to find any data on the SII/ SII/ SIII senders or gauges, nor any to test.

Tom
Interesting! Yes its a S2 , so are you saying my sender is correct and the gauge is wrong?
I bought the car with this instrument cluster in place..I know the car at one time had a front end body replacement and interior door covers are not original etc so its possible that this could be true its got SV gauges in it..
It may be this car was cobbled together after an accident but i have NO info on it and the guy that sold it to me either didn't know or didn't say....They do jump around a bit wile running and i always assumed that was because of the regulator..Im going to check voltage to see if what you guys say about the voltage being 10V it could account for why im at 100 ohms and not 77 but the resistor box may not be accurate too..so ill have to check all that out.....I suspect thats the case ..but more checks are needed...Ill post my results and maybe we can get a better understanding of whats proper...God known's i have never been proper my whole life!

Whats interesting is the sender unit i replaced was supposed to be correct for this car... and its readings are as i posted... so I am not sure if i order another now ill be right back in the same place
When i got the car it was positive ground and i switched over..I also have a delco Alternator instead of the old DC generator...
Out to check my readings Cheers...
 
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Chazbeam

Silver Level Sponsor
voltage reading check

Well seems i don't have a voltage regulator that gives any 10.8 volts..

I was getting 12v with key on and 14.8 engine running at the meters..
(hmm funny the gas gauge works fine)

I will confirm exact measurements with the gauge on a bench power supply and calibrated resistors come Monday But today checking the sensor out of the car and cleaned up with a wire brush it is reading around 560 ohms and went down to about 200 running under the faucet of hot water (quick check if its moving) seems i may have had oxidization causing a faulty reading.. Im going to clean things up and put it back together but DAM im getting confused!

So it would seem that maybe i have a series 2 but with later gauges?..
There has been some question on the date this car was made...because it shows 1963 on some documents..Could it be possible that there was a switch over happening during these builds? when did they start changing gauge's to a more modern system? Now im confused.....

Anyway the original did work but the little tab corroded off and fell apart that's why i had changed it... wish i kept the original....but it starts to make sens why things have not matched up on many things like the rear being off a Rapier...(now I have a SV rear in it from the toyota trans swap...)

Anyway as i am fine with things how they are...Its my daily driver and im slowly dialing it in. So what ill do is find the right one for the gauge or see if this is going to work cleaned up...

UGG..
(Get a classic they said, it will be fun they said) I kid i love this thing!

Cheers
 
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Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Chaz, first of all understand that I was referring to the "Voltage stabilizer", that is used to regulate the voltage used just for the gauges on SIII thru SV Alpines, not the main voltage regulator. As you see the regular output of the alternator or generator varies between 12 and 15 v . This variation is not a problem for the ignition, lights, radio , etc, But it would cause the temp and fuel gauges to read different depending on the state of charge on the battery. So on the SIII thru SV they added an extra "stabilizer" to stabilize the voltage used just for the two gauges, Temp and Fuel. The original factory stabilizers worked on an On/ off method , turning on and off about 2 times per second to produce approximately 10 V average, regardless of whether the full battery voltage was 12 or 13 or 15. And the gauges for the SIII thru SV were designed to operate at that 10 V.

The late gauges work fine with this on off stabilizer, because they work on a thermal principle and the needles always move quite slowly.

The earlier Alpines had more complex (and expensive) design of the gauges and relied on a complex "bridge" circuit inside to make the immune to the voltage changes, and thus did not require the stabilizer.

When you first turn the car on, does the Fuel gauge move quickly, almost instantly, to the correct indication? If so, it is almost surely the early S1 , S2 type, and I have no idea what the sender resistance should be. I only know that all catalogs show a different sender for the S1, S2 cars than the S3-S5 Alpines. In general, if you see the needle on either Temp or Fuel gauge move quickly, like jumpy, they are almost surely S1, S2 gauges,

If, on the other hand they always move very slowly, even on a warmed up car, where it sat for a few minutes and then you turn on the key, then they are almost surely S3 thru S5 gauges, and require the use of the "stabilizer" to read accurately.

Again , I say I do not know the resistances appropriate for S1, S2 Gauges. But the values noted earlier in this thread were about the S3 thru S5 gauges.

If you do indeed have S1 , S2 Gauges, and can tell us the resistances for different readings, say, 0, mid scale, and full scale, you will be providing new information I have not previously seen on this forum or anywhere. That would be neat info to have.

By the way, all the late series gauges I have seen 3 have pairs of TINY dots to indicate their electrical calibration Zero, Mid-scale and Full-Scale indications, regardless of the markings for Fuel or Temp numbers. I would love to know if the S1 , S2 gauges have similar markings, and those markings are what you should use to determine the resistance required for the three level indications.

Tom
 

Chazbeam

Silver Level Sponsor
Gauge identified

TOM..

thanks so much for that info...YES they jump up to a spot fast...gas always to its last position with engine running...

One quirk i noticed was if i just put the key ON the gas gauge sits a slight lower then when the engine is running...seems in running its accurate to how much gas i have .. matches what you say about the alternator system as i was aware of too. (i switched from the generator to an alternator a wile back)

Now the temp gauge, pops up to its "start" mark but never climbs higher..(unless i apply the resistor network box). still with the temp sender in place i don't get a reading unless im going up a hill and then a slight elevation..

Also my cooling system has been so well dialed in it never overheats on the hottest day even sitting in traffic....I have an oil cooler but it not hooked up anymore...

I am still going to do the bench tests (so busy these days) and get accurate readings and ill let you know about the dots etc..iM SURE IT HAS THEM...
Ill take some pictures and post them..

So yes according to your description i think i do have the series 2 gauges..

again! Thanks so much for that great info TOM!
 

Chazbeam

Silver Level Sponsor
Water temp meter

So here is the Series 2 water temp meter with the face off..you can see the dots and the sender units numbers TC4304/00

The pointer is cocked to one side because its on its back and tilted to try and avoid the light glare...
it is normally all the way to the left..but powered its set at the 90 degree mark..

Tomorrow ill put it on the bench and get some real accurate measurements of the resistance's at 90 170, 190, and 230 as well as the center dots position..I suppose just the three will do as you suggested TOM...... i can do the same for both meters and see if they basically match..or get an average..


 
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Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Chaz, Hey that's great. Now I know what S1, S2 gauges look like. They DO have the cal dots. I am 99% sure that the fuel gauges are identical, including te cal dots, but with different main marks, of course. I look forward to your results with the ohms box. I tested several SV gauges with a current source and an ohmmeter so I know them and the senders pretty well and have posted my results. But with your added info I think I will do a more complete write up to include both older and newer type gauges, and post in in the Article archives.

And it's good to see you confirm that the temp sender for the S1, S2 gauges is different than the TT-4802/00A used on the later gauges. From the earlier resistance numbers you posted, it appears the senders are not a lot different, but enough to mess up the readings if the wrong one is used.

Note that the design of the earlier gauges is such to minimize the effect of varying battery voltage, but from your description, apparently it does not eliminate the issue totally. I have assumed that the newer gauge system was done to save costs, but it may have also been done to improve performance.

Tom
 

Chazbeam

Silver Level Sponsor
Chaz, Hey that's great. Now I know what S1, S2 gauges look like. They DO have the cal dots. I am 99% sure that the fuel gauges are identical, including te cal dots, but with different main marks, of course. I look forward to your results with the ohms box.


Hay TOM! So yes today i was able to check one of them on the bench and here are the reading rundown..I used a small variable resister to get more accurate readings and a variable power supply set to precise voltages..

I noticed i posted the wrong sender unit numbers in the post down a ways in this thread...
I am now wondering if this is right or wrong for the car still? I posted 4302 when my meter is 4304
Is this indicative of Series 2 Series 4??? or that just not how it works? ill have to remove the meter from the car and check again....( i suspect i may have both types) my spare being the 4304

Ok SO At start the meter will move when you hit around 100 ohms. (maybe even 77 as was indicated in the thread...)
(at 14.8volts) This is about what my alternator is putting out..(i have been reading that this may be a bit high but because the battery is in the back seat at that point i think its OK...(that's the place to measure setting the regulators output)) at the gauges i got 14.8 volts car running...
So this is about what i got average..
90° = 100Ω (just starts to budge the meter)
170° = 22Ω
center = 20Ω dots
190° = 15Ω
230 = 10Ω
Its obviously not that linear, more exponential but i suspect so is the sender unit..
I did the test several times and got about the same readings give or take an ohm.

On 12 volts bench test the readings are slightly lower 19 ohms center 7 at full deflection....
This was my spare meter...
The meter in the car with the car running was different..(slightly) maybe 22 ohms at center position...but wiring etc may account for some of that..(resit box at sender unit)

I think originally i was getting some faulty readings perhaps wiring corrosion etc

I don't think anyone expected high precision out of these even at the factory..the idea was it gave you some good indication as to where things are or they are going!

OH and yes the gas gauge is the same Ill try and get some pics of that too..
But even with the "looseness " it still gives me pretty good readings on my Gas levels....
here is my Ghetto CAD mockup ↓ (windows paint)

Water_temp_meter.jpg
 
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