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Swapping out the underpinnings - 1963 Alpine

Jeffrey.Sweeney

Donation Time
I'm brand new to this group. My family has owned a couple Alpines since the late 1970s. I recently came into possession of a 1963 Alpine that is in very good condition. My automotive background is really in modern muscle Fords. ie, I like to go fast.

Having said that, I've been wondering if anyone has gone to the trouble of separating the frame from the body and dropping the body on a modern frame. Something that has better handling geometry and can be more easily modified to accommodate modern components. My frame of reference for this is the current after market Cobras that you can buy that are fitted with a BMW Z3 chassis. It may not be that easy and might be some along the lines of a custom ladder frame. Anyway, I'm just wondering if anyone has tried this most likely bad idea.

As for all the neat things that I've seen done. Pretty amazing to see the passion and creativity.
 

MikeH

Diamond Level Sponsor
Someone tried that a while back on a Miata, but abandoned it as I recall. Then there is Belmateo that married his ‘67 Alpine to a Honda S2000.
But if that is your intent, why not do it with one that is bad underneath to begin with, instead of one that is “in very good condition”? But then it’s your car to do with as you please.
 
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Jeffrey.Sweeney

Donation Time
Someone tried that a while back on a Miata, but abandoned it as I recall. Then there is Belmateo that married his ‘67 Alpine to a Honda S2000.
But if that is your intent, why not do it with one that is bad underneath to begin with, instead of one that is “in very good condition”? But then it’s your car to do with as you please.


My wife asks me that type of question all the time. Why do you need a 1400 hp car you drive 4 times a year, when it already has 1200 hp? That is a good question and probably a point I should pay attention to. Usually I just blankly look at her and change the subject. A Miata did cross my mind but for some reason I thought that was a unibody design and it would too big of a job. Yes, coming at it from a reclamation of a good body but bad frame perspective is probably a much better idea.

Thank you for the input. I do see there are quite a few things that I can do to the car to improve handling and braking without major surgery and a 24 month ordeal.
 

Barry

Diamond Level Sponsor
My wife asks me that type of question all the time. Why do you need a 1400 hp car you drive 4 times a year, when it already has 1200 hp? That is a good question and probably a point I should pay attention to. Usually I just blankly look at her and change the subject. A Miata did cross my mind but for some reason I thought that was a unibody design and it would too big of a job. Yes, coming at it from a reclamation of a good body but bad frame perspective is probably a much better idea.

Thank you for the input. I do see there are quite a few things that I can do to the car to improve handling and braking without major surgery and a 24 month ordeal.



FWIW, both Miatas and Series Alpines are unibody cars and neither have conventional frames.
 

junkman

Gold Level Sponsor
A friend of mine cut out the floor pans, tunnel and all and built a tube frame welded to the rockers. Built his own Mutt 2 front end and inserted a 427 dual quad side oiler with a C6 and 9 inch, complete with Jeep power brake booster. A very serious series 4 hot rod.
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
I guess an understanding of what a sunbeam is..

They are an early"ish" style unibody. They are not like a 'vette or healey set with a chassis that the body bolts to. They are sections of pressed panels welded together.

There are guys who have unpicked or cut off the outher panels and modified them to fit other cars.. S2000, mustang II, miata ....

Its your car and your choice...but you say ots in nice condition and you basically want to completely axe it to drop the external panels on amother car? If it had a rusty bottom section.. Pans X frame etc...sure....otherwise to me ( and just my opinion) you will apparently be hatcheting a solid car for not much gain over building buying a kit car..

If you like the sunbeam style.. Mold fibreglass panels from the car and use those... Then sell the car to be recommissioned/restored
 

fonz

Silver Level Sponsor
I'm brand new to this group. My family has owned a couple Alpines since the late 1970s. I recently came into possession of a 1963 Alpine that is in very good condition. My automotive background is really in modern muscle Fords. ie, I like to go fast.

Having said that, I've been wondering if anyone has gone to the trouble of separating the frame from the body and dropping the body on a modern frame. Something that has better handling geometry and can be more easily modified to accommodate modern components. My frame of reference for this is the current after market Cobras that you can buy that are fitted with a BMW Z3 chassis. It may not be that easy and might be some along the lines of a custom ladder frame. Anyway, I'm just wondering if anyone has tried this most likely bad idea.

As for all the neat things that I've seen done. Pretty amazing to see the passion and creativity.

WOW, after I just spent all this time repairing the original "X" section and arms, I never even THOUGHT of connecting the front to the rear with a "sub frame connector" ! I can't Believe I didn't even consider that !
 

jdoclogan

Platinum Level Sponsor
If you "search forums" with the word Lyrad in the option at the top of any forum page you will find several threads that include the Lyrad. Winding through these threads you will find where I installed a Miata rear suspension into the Series I platform that configured the Lyrad's base. It constituted a significant amount of work and measure-measure-measure then tack weld and measure-measure-measure-adjust-measure-adjust again before final weld. Understand that the front section of the Lyrad is a design implementation extending the Sunbeam to a 100 inch wheel base. Similar to an XKE fabricated by the original Lyrad builder Darryl Townsend. I installed the front Miata suspension into this component that Darryl had fabricated. All of the alignment from front to rear ( a cross measurement shows that the four corners are within 1/16 of an inch) was the most important aspect along with excellent welds and attachment of components. This process is not for the I'll do it in a few hours garage mechanic/fabricator. I didn't keep tract but I have several hundred hours into this conversion. Just figuring out removing components from the donor 1994 Miata and assess the mounting to the Alpine/XKE platforms was challenging. Don't get me wrong I thrive on this type of challenge. And it can be done.
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Here is a naked Miata chassis. Maybe there is some way to put a Sunbeam body on this. I will say the wheel base and distance across the chassis is very close to the same. However, I just don't have a vision of such a conversion.
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Lyrad with Miata suspension.
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Current status of Lyrad with Jaguar XKE modified hood. The Jaguar engine and transmission/with overdrive are ready for installation.
 

Stormbringer

Donation Time
I considered a whole new frame when I started my project, and now after replacing about 2/3's of the frame(rust) and all the floor pans I think it would have been worth starting from scratchIMG_0115.JPG . Stock Miata is too wide(approx 66") to drop an Alpine on. I had to narrow the miata front suspension about 6" to work.
 

Stormbringer

Donation Time
This is how the front suspension and subframe turned out. Miata control arms were too wide to fit into Alpine frame, by holding onto the miata geometry the upper arms landed right in the middle of the front frame rails. Could have accommodated for that with a whole new frame. Maybe next time??
 

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Mike O'D

Gold Level Sponsor
It would be a shame to cut up a good car - especially if it's a Series 3, which was the lowest production series. I would love to have more power, but they are really great, fun cars the way they are.
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
It would be a shame to cut up a good car - especially if it's a Series 3, which was the lowest production series. I would love to have more power, but they are really great, fun cars the way they are.
Plenty you can do to warm up thats rootes motor ;)
 

jdoclogan

Platinum Level Sponsor
Stormbringer, The Lyrad was very close (.25 to .5 inch) to the NA Miata's 55.5" front and 56.2" rear track widths (Note: an NB [1999-2005] has an additional .5" front and rear). Thus, for my Miata to Lyrad transplant there wasn't a problem. It also allowed for the direct use of the Miata's rack and pinion steering by welding the Jaguar steering shaft to the Miata's shaft (tricky because one has to heat the two components to 550 degrees F. at the weld point) I also ended up with a Torsen LSD Miata rear end.

I agree, for the Alpine with a 52.5" Front and a 51.5" Rear track width the Miata implant wouldn't be a direct swap. Nice adaptation on your part. I expect the Lyrad at a 100" wheel base and the installed Miata independent suspension to be a very smooth GT ride. I also will get the advantage of having multiple selections for spring weights and shocks for tuning the Lyrad's suspension.

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Lyrad's finished Miata suspension swap.


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Lyrad with 3.4 Jaguar engine installed. Note the use of the Miata power brake and master cylinder (drivers side on the firewall). I also incorporated the clutch master cylinder.
 

jumpinjan

Bronze Level Sponsor
You know, you guys are having fun and keeping busy, and thats great. But I cannot see you guys actually finishing these projects. It's hard enough just to restore a stock factory one, and with your high ambitions to build a custom, it's just hard to finish them, and have them drive well...One guy just cannot equal a factory of engineers...but I get it!
Jan
 
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