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Supercharging

owakip

Donation Time
Anyone supercharged an Alpine motor.. I race a 1600cc Alpine motor in a Buckler sports car (pre 1960).. On tight tracks the car is a podium finisher most times.. but on tracks with longer straights I miss out to larger capacity cars.. My winter project is to build up a supercharged (Rootes type of course) 1600cc engine. If someone has been down this route before me.. I would appreciate any tips.
Thanks
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
There was a road going alpine here in Melbourne AU that used a supercharger from an early jap spec Toyota MR2. there is also a car here that runs in historics here that runs a supercharged rootes 1494 iron head motor.. he is based in NSW.. i can probably get his details.
 

Cactusmasher

Donation Time
You might try contacting the MG guys.....clubs, suppliers, etc. I have seen magazine articles in the past of supercharged MG racers and somebody makes a kit to add it to the MG engines. Probably adaptable to the Rootes engine with a little ingenuity and machine work. Wish I could recall the magazine I saw the article in, but these days it''s hard to recall what I had for breakfast.
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Why supercharge?

Unless there is a vintage element (old school judson or equivalent need), superchargers are less efficient than a turbo in all but full throttle conditions and then they are equal at best.

If its just making more power than the 1600cc displacement, turbo is easier in all respects.

1) Lower adiabatic/pumping losses from idle to moderate load.
2) Power on demand that doesnt cost fuel when its not being used.
3) Much simpler and forgiving mechanical fabrication.
4) Crank doesnt loose net blower drive torque (more net HP per BTU fuel).

Turbo doesnt need a magic blower drive cog/chain.
Turbo easier to intercool than nearly all blowers (old school blowers didnt bother to intercool).


Folks have turboed rootes powered alpines (I have heard of at least one running a judson blower).

I have heard of people turboing relatively stock alpines at up to 3 or 4 PSI.
You will need a pressure based ignition retarder to do this without piston failure.

Lister Tigertr has built a serious full tilt 1725 turbo engine that outputs more than 200 crank hp.
Check his build thread to see what can be done with serious commitment and $$$.
 

owakip

Donation Time
Thanks for your help guys.
Michael, I am in in Sydney in a few weeks for a couple of days .. so any information you have on the guy who runs the NSW based iron head Alpine, running in Historics .. I would be very grateful for.
At this stage I am looking at running an SC12 (Toyota MR2) or the larger SC14 Rootes type supercharger which I am advised are legal to run here,in my category.
 
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alpine_64

Donation Time
Thanks for your help guys.
Michael, I am in in Sydney in a few weeks for a couple of days .. so any information you have on the guy who runs the NSW based iron head Alpine, running in Historics .. I would be very grateful for.
At this stage I am looking at running an SC12 (Toyota MR2) or the larger SC14 Rootes type supercharger which I am advised are legal to run here,in my category.

Send me a Pm with your email and i will try and get the guys details. As a a side note there was an Alpine here in Melbourne running a jap spec early MR2 supercharger. I do not know who owns the car or where t is now. But the owner of All Hunter parts in Melbourne might have his details, he knew the car.. this was back in 1996.
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
I dug through the archive.. the 1494cc iron head rootes motor with supercharger:
 

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Nickodell

Donation Time
Why supercharge?

Unless there is a vintage element (old school judson or equivalent need), superchargers are less efficient than a turbo in all but full throttle conditions and then they are equal at best.

If its just making more power than the 1600cc displacement, turbo is easier in all respects.

1) Lower adiabatic/pumping losses from idle to moderate load.
2) Power on demand that doesnt cost fuel when its not being used.
3) Much simpler and forgiving mechanical fabrication.
4) Crank doesnt loose net blower drive torque (more net HP per BTU fuel).

Turbo doesnt need a magic blower drive cog/chain.
Turbo easier to intercool than nearly all blowers (old school blowers didnt bother to intercool).


Folks have turboed rootes powered alpines (I have heard of at least one running a judson blower).

I have heard of people turboing relatively stock alpines at up to 3 or 4 PSI.
You will need a pressure based ignition retarder to do this without piston failure.

Lister Tigertr has built a serious full tilt 1725 turbo engine that outputs more than 200 crank hp.
Check his build thread to see what can be done with serious commitment and $$$.

Don't turbos still have one disadvantage compared with superchargers, boost lag from low throttle? Maybe things have changed since I messed about with a Judson on my TD.
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
Don't turbos still have one disadvantage compared with superchargers, boost lag from low throttle? Maybe things have changed since I messed about with a Judson on my TD.

turbo lag was solved in the mid 90's, and has been advanced heavily in the last few years. There are several ways around it, anti lag systems, staged turbocharging and modern electronics.... due to emission legislation most cars, especially performance cars, are moving towards turbo motors for smaller displacement and high HP.. look at any modern merc, BMW, peugeot, mini, citroen just to name a few.
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
That would explain it.

I was leery of turbos when my neighbor's Chrysler convertible (don't recall the model) in the 1980s had one, and if he forgot to let the motor idle for the prescribed two minutes after parking, it risked harming the bearings. He finally forgot once too often, resulting in a frozen turbo spindle and an engine that would run but now without boost, losing 30 or more HP. I understand they finally cured that snag with a kind of automatic oiler to keep the lube feeding the bearings, while the turbo slowed and stopped, even with the motor off.
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
Nick,

i dont want this thread to go off topic as so often happens when people bring up these sort of questions, so after this answer I would suggest you start a new topic in the general chat section if you want to discuss turbos more.

I am surprised you dont know of turbo timers, thee have been common since the 90's.. the engine runs for a couple of minutes after the driver turns the car off, modern turbo cars dont require this anymore, but was a get around a while back.

Things have moved on a lot since the 1980's.. that is 30 years ago... you know cars run fuel injection now... and for the last 5 years most have been switching to direct injection... things progress.
 

65beam

Donation Time
in the 80's and into the 90's we had an engine oil intended for use in turbocharged engines. it had what we called a higher soak down temp than conventional engine oil. the conventional oil could not withstand the rising temps of the turbo when the engine was shut down quickly. with a non turbo spec oil you fried the oil and also the turbo bearings. the additive package broke down under these higher temps. as the specs of the oil continued to be improved on turbo oils became obsolete and were no longer blended.
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Nick,

I am surprised you dont know of turbo timers, thee have been common since the 90's.. the engine runs for a couple of minutes after the driver turns the car off, modern turbo cars dont require this anymore, but was a get around a while back.

Why do you assume I don't? My friend's problem was in the 1980s, at the very early stage of turbos on passenger cars in the States. His owner's manual stated that he had to idle before turning off. No timers back then.
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
Nickodell; said:
Why do you assume I don't?

That would explain it.

I was leery of turbos when my neighbor's Chrysler convertible (don't recall the model) in the 1980s had one, and if he forgot to let the motor idle for the prescribed two minutes after parking, it risked harming the bearings. He finally forgot once too often, resulting in a frozen turbo spindle and an engine that would run but now without boost, losing 30 or more HP. I understand they finally cured that snag with a kind of automatic oiler to keep the lube feeding the bearings, while the turbo slowed and stopped, even with the motor off.

Nick that's why i would assume that you didnt.. along with your comments about lag... this is now well off topic from the original question.. if you want to chat about turbos.. or fond memories of why you used to be leery of them start another thread.... this is not helping the guy get info on the supercharger. Also re your comments about US cars being turboed,, the early 60's corvairs had turbo engines available.
 

Nickodell

Donation Time
Electric-powered superchargers have been discussed several time in the past; all the examples being promoted were unlikely to provide any measurable boost. Here's perhaps the first practical one:

Supercharger_zpsc7bf09db.jpg
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
This would make the power on those electric motors to a surprisingly high level for their size.

It takes a very large amount of electrical power to produce boosted air at the CFMs needed by even a small engine.
IIRC its along the lines of 15 to 20hp to feed a small 2 liter engine at 1 bar boost.

That would be around 20kw of electrical energy to be able to give that power level to the gas engine. Also remember every watt needed to run the compressor motor needs about 1.5 watts of mechanical energy to replenish the battery loss.

Looks nice technologically, but thermal turbocharging will always be higher efficiency.
 
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