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Stock vs Personalized vs Modified

bkasl

Bronze Level Sponsor
In judging these categories, what are the differences? Stock being obvious no alterations made since new, but what consists of personalized and modified?
I always thought modern upgrades to make the cars safer or more reliable were just a necessity. Many of the components are old and either not rebuildable or not efficient. I have the original set of steel wheels but they are not true and would hate to drive any distance with them.
Examples being generator to alternator, stock steel wheels to alloy.
Any ideas appreciated, with that in mind how many cars in stock category are truly untouched from original without some upgrade done?
 

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Read the description of the Stock category :
"For those striving to preserve the period look & feel of their car (but don't mind improvements in carb, brake, wiring, etc.)"

For those interested in "untouched" there is the category Factory Original:
"How did it originally come from the factory? What dealer options were available? (Discussions for the purists)"

If you're going to swap in a modern or larger engine, or a whole new chassis ,there is the Modified category :
"Because there's always room for improvement (such as non-Rootes engine swaps and significant component changes)"

Seems pretty clear.

I would have no concern about factory steel wheels, unless they have been damaged somehow. I have driven my SV Alpine coast to coast several times with original steel wheels, with no issues
 

Acollin

Platinum Level Sponsor
I understand most of what you say, but there are probably issues with change outs and adaptations. I suspect the arguments can go on until the cows come home, but there should be a line drawn somewhere in something other than the owners head as to where Sunbeam stops and something else begins.

1) is there a point at which it is no longer a Sunbeam? The title may say one thing, but if you drop a Sunbeam body over an all mazda drive train and chassis what are you driving? Please know I am not critical of any adaptation and am amazed at the alterations that some owners make— after all it is your ride.

I have a very stock Series V— brake booster failed and I never replaced it. I have it, just have not rebuilt it, but I have always liked the look of the medallion on the hood of earlier models and the Sunbeam letters across the nose. I have resisted making changes thinking that I could effect the value of my very stock - no rust ever Sunbeam. That too is simply another myth that I have lodged in my head as one cannot really rebuild something and call it original. “ Its only original once”.

I ‘m not sweating this, but I do find it interesting to consider although I am personally offended by Ford or chevy motors installed in an XKE!!!!!

be well all
 

hartmandm

Moderator
Diamond Level Sponsor
I took the initial post to be asking about judging cars in those different categories. I.e. car show judging. Is this thread really about the SAOCA forum categories as Tom interpreted? We don't have a forum category for "personalized".

Mike
 

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
Mike, I'm pretty sure Brent Kasl meant how to judge , i.e determine, which Forum category to use when posting.

Acoli, you understand that most of "what I said" is simply quoted from the definitions noted on the Forum for each category.

It seems quite clear that an issue about keeping or dropping your brake booster would be in the Stock category, as defined on the Forum. Same with swapping in different Series badges, Overdrive, improved Alternator, earlier/ later series motor, etc. I'd suggest that even swapping in a 5 speed transmission fits this Stock category, although that's getting close to the edge of the definition, in my view.qa

And it seems quite clear that dropping a Sunbeam body on a Mazda chassis belongs in the Modified category. And it's quite a moot point if that makes it "no longer" a Sunbeam or not. It's simply a matter of where the author think he might find the most interest in his project. He might find a Mazda forum, more suitable, if such exists. But if he is primarily interested in and familiar with Sunbeams he would likely post it here. And, hopefully, he would post it in the Modified Forum. I think everyone agrees that swapping in a significantly different motor, Non-Rootes, non- Ford V8, non 4 or 8 cyl, belongs in the Modified category.

I'm not sure where what category should be used for discussing an "Alger", converting an Alpine to a "Tiger" using a Ford V8 of the type used in Tigers. I' personally would expect to see that in the Modified category.

Tom
 

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
personally offended by Ford or chevy motors installed in an XKE!!!!!

I would not be offended if an Owner put a Cummins Diesel in His XKE. It is his choice. However it is no longer a stock vehicle, it could be considered either personalized or modified.

Recommend you that a good look at the definitions approved by the SUNI folks before this last meet that was utilized by the Clubs (TEAE/CAT/SAOCA/ etc., etc ) Judges. Very detailed in many ways.

Go to the TEAE Site for SUNI VII and you can find it. If not already on ours (SAOCA) hope it will be soon.
 

Alpine 1789

SAOCA President
Diamond Level Sponsor
I wasn't able to stay long at the SUNI car show, but was also bewildered by the differences between "Personalized" and "Modified". There were not that many Alpines there to really show the overlap between the categories, but I was completely unable to see how the determination was made on the Tigers. Many of them looked pretty stock to me, so there is even confusion as to that category, but ignoring that, I still couldn't seem any difference between many of the cars in the two categories.

As far as our sub-forums go, I am sure some are confused by whether or not, for example, to ask a question about Weber carbs in the Stock or Modified sections, but it seems to me that this isn't a big issue and most questions get answered wherever they are posted. Sometimes a topic in Stock goes way too far outside the vague boundaries and has been moved, but I don't believe this is frequent enough to worry about.
 

Tom H

Platinum Level Sponsor
As bkasl notes, his WAS a show judging question. He noted in an e-mail to me that he entered the Stock category for the meet and a was dinged for a Weber, Mota steering wheel, alternator and incorrect screws on trunk hinges among other things . Apparently he also got dinged erroneously for an OD warning light that WAS correct. So clearly our categories are defined for our purposes and may not match the categories and criteria for other organizations and events. I think our categories and definitions are quite appropriate for our members but no one should assume our definitions match any others. And we DO have a category for those interested in maintaining Factory Original. Note that the interest level for Factory Original category, based on # of posts, is about one tenth that of the Stock and Modified categories
 

Warren

Bronze Level Sponsor
Tigers at least at CAT and STOA United it's listed what separates stock from personalized and modified. Now there has been a car competing in a personalized class with a IFS Hokanson front end and that fellow went on to win the coveted Lord Rootes trophy. Clearly this bent the rules as the rules plainly stated for that event.
I can remember getting a dressing down because my personalized car has an MG quick rack in it, I laughed it off and said I'm going in personalized because I'm a threat to nobody and also because I only have 210 rear wheel horsepower and would get my clock cleaned even if I could drive as good as those guys with 50 or 60 horsepower less.

The rules do get bent here and there and it's somewhat disturbing. I've heard it said that guys take out the original rack and pinion gearing in a Tiger to put in Doane Spencer repop gearing racks. Now certainly this can be quite an advantage having a car that steers quicker thru the turns than an autocross. It also seems that it's a bigger problem if somebody is really good at it and is competing in stock with something that's not stock such as the aforementioned quick rack or competing in personalized with an obviously transforming the car upgrade like a Dale front end or it's predecessor the Hokanson.

At one point there was a system where the clubs used a point system to add things up to push a car out of the personalized class into the modified class. Typically if you're driving and modified you have to have a 347 and some serious power. I would say it was probably that way putting up the v6s against the stock alpines. The SUNI results are available here.

https://www.catmbr.org/cat-forum/threads/suni-autox-results.7539/
 

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
the v6s against the stock alpines

The V6 (Steve Pace) was classed as a Modified and went up against the Tiger (modified) as I recall at SUNI VII.

Thought outclassed by pure horse power He did well for his first time participating.

During the Judging Event the V6 Alpines were judged as "Modified" separate from the other Alpines judged as Personalized or Stock.
 
Last edited:

PROCRAFT

Donation Time
The V6 (Steve Pace) was classed as a Modified and went up against the Tiger (modified) as I recall at SUNI VII.

Thought outclassed by pure horse power He did well for his first time participating.

During the Judging Event the V6 Alpines were judged as "Modified" separate from the other Alpines judged as Personalized or Stock.
I bitched for years as to how the rules were supposedly its all sorted out now but by the comments here apparently NOT! a V6 Alpine is a Modified car period. just like as Warren said a Toyz Junkie cross member is not stock and probably not personalized either. there's a lot of grey area between personalized and modified, I've never had a stock Tiger or Alpine so what do I know! in the past a lot of cars were lumped into the same class to avoid having to award to many trophies but yet in the AutoX there were trophies galore. I sometimes wonder if I had been able to attend SUNI how the latest car would have been judged/received?
Rant for the day!
 

DanR

Diamond Level Sponsor
I sometimes wonder if I had been able to attend SUNI how the latest car would have been judged/received?

Good morning, Joel ! Enjoyed the short visit and thanks for your help !

I'd have to say "A Modified Alpine"
 

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Years ago, SAOCA had Personalized and Modified classes at an Invasion. They were created in order to insure the owners of two very extensively modified cars would receive awards. Well, one car got sold, the other suffered major engine damage due to excessive turbo boost. So neither car was able to attend. As a result, our orange Duratec powered car won Best Personalized, the only win for the car. A V6 won the best Modified. At the time, I was unable learn the reasoning of how the two highly modified cars were separated into the two classes. Very funny.

Bill
 

PROCRAFT

Donation Time
Years ago, SAOCA had Personalized and Modified classes at an Invasion. They were created in order to insure the owners of two very extensively modified cars would receive awards. Well, one car got sold, the other suffered major engine damage due to excessive turbo boost. So neither car was able to attend. As a result, our orange Duratec powered car won Best Personalized, the only win for the car. A V6 won the best Modified. At the time, I was unable learn the reasoning of how the two highly modified cars were separated into the two classes. Very funny.

Bill
Even I got an award for a modified Alpine at an invasion in Tipp City who'd of thought.
 

Warren

Bronze Level Sponsor
There's a silly saying tiger owners have about them.
Want to make a Tiger stop? Turn the wheels. Then there's the autocross courses that are set up so tight to keep the speed down. One event in particular that I was glad I was not driving was just like that.. The course was so tight and so slow but that probably 30% DNF'd because they had to put the car in reverse, including the guy who set it up. I went over and tried to look at the results but it could not see where the V6 Alpine was put up against a modified Tiger. It seems an office stretch to do something like that unless the horsepower is really high. When people race boats they have handicaps added for modifications to their boat possibly handicapping system would be a little more fair..
 
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