Starting issue

[Acollin]

A little help please

1966 series V-- stock set up.

I may have asked this question last summer and have misplaced the reply--- Sorry.

Turn key to start--- nothing-- no sound, no cranking.
Leave key in on position and push button on selinoid and the car fires off just fine.

The issue is erratic -- most times, turning the key works just fine.

Thoughts?-- Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[Toyanvil]

Sounds like your ING switch is bad. You can pick one up at the auto parts store.

 

[Acollin]

ING?

Where is it and what is it?

Thanks

 

[Hillman]

your ignition switch, where the key goes

 

[John W]

If it is your ignition switch and you have and/or want to keep it original or even keep your original keys if you still have them, some on this board can help. Mark, Volvoguys is one of the gifted and generous people here that comes to mind.

 

[Tom H]

I think more likely the problem is at the solenoid. If the solenoid is not well grounded it will not actuate. Also I have had one solenoid fail because the connector, where the red/white wire from the Ign Switch connects, was loose- you could wiggle that connector that is riveted to the solenoid. I re-soldered that connector and problem was solved. Or replace the solenoid.

Easy to test if it's the solenoid or Ign Sw. JUst connect a test lamp to that connection and turn the Ign Sw to start and see of the lamp lights: no light = bad Ign Sw. Light but no click = bad solenoid

Tom

 

[hartmandm]

Andrew,

I'd remove the red/white wire from the solenoid when testing if it gets 12V when the ignition is switched to 'start'. That way you avoid your testing process potentially causing a temporary 'good' connection at the solenoid.

And don't let the ignition sit in the 'run' position too long while doing your testing. You can cook the ignition coil.

Mike

 

[Acollin]

Thanks all for the input. Sorry, too, about not correctly reading the typo.

I have a spare selinoid that I can throw in and will go through tightening connections, but the hard part of this is the issue is intermittent nature and using the test light may miss the problem when things are working as it should. Yesterday, I went to visit a friend and the car fired off just fine going and coming home. Test light would not have turned up much.

Another symptom to aid your assessment: My car has always, in the time I have owned it, had something a bit wierd and is probably connected to my issue. When turning the key to start, the starter will begin to crank and then just cut out and "groan" to no sound. Resetting the key will allow me to begin the process again and while it may cut out again after two or three resets, the car will fire off and be fine.

Any thoughts on the new data?

Thanks again for the support.
Andrew

 

[Tom H]

You describe exactly the issue I had. Intermittent. First loosen and then tighten the mounting screws for the solenoid to make sure you have good ground. Next , pull the red white lead off the solenoid and see if the connector "flag" on the solenoid is at all loose. I am 90% sure your problem is at one of those two points.

Tom

 

[Acollin]

There is a bit of "wobble" at the red/white flag connection on the selinoid.
Does this mean my selinoid in the problem?

Another possible symptom: I was reading in my owners manual where it says " it --the key--- will spring back to the ignition on position. Page 10. My key does not spring back. Ignition switch problem?

My extra selinoid --- while it is a " button " selinoid appears to have one fewer " flag" terminal. Does this mean my spare selinoid is not from a series V?

The plot thickens-- I can still enjoy the driving-- best weather time for Oregon--- I just need to get under the hood to start my car.

Thanks in advance for all the help I expect is on the way!
Andrew

 

[Acollin]

Update/ correction

My ignition switch does bounce back.

Test light to red/ white wire is powered up by turning the key. Light goes dark when key is released.

Is my selinoid the problem?---works manually not electronically. If so, can it be repair? How: Tom talked soldering --- what gets soldered where?

How about that selinoid question-- Do I have one that is not from a series V?

Thanks again all--- sorry for the earlier erroneous information!
Andrew

 

[Ken Ellis]

The extra/missing terminal issue on the solenoid may be because one has the 'cold start' option wire and one doesn't. (Feeds full 12V to coil only during cranking.) Still useable for testing without that option, with a bit of re-configuration.

The loose terminal issue can be addressed by staking the rivet to be tighter (which can have an element of risk of plastic breakage) or cleaning well and soldering to improve the connection (with its risk of collateral heat damage.)

Staking is striking the rivet with a hammer via a correctly-shaped punch to distort the metal enough to achieve a reliable mechanical and electrical connection. Backing the opposite end of the rivet is key, to prevent the plastic body of the switch/solenoid from taking the brunt of the blow. Disassembly is often required, so not always a lightweight project.

Sometimes removing voltage from a system and testing connections with an audible (beeper) continuity tester will reveal intermittencies not noticed with a glowing test light, due to the persistence of the filament. You'll need to make sure the test clip connections are clean and secure, of course.

In the meantime, you could rig up a two-switch affair: ignition on (which works already) and a separate "start" momentary button, like the new fancy go-to-meetin' cars have. That might let you travel more reliably until replacement parts or additional analysis time make an appearance.

 

[Tom H]

I'd estimate 99% sure that the loose "wobbly" terminal is the problem. I was able to fix mine by re-soldering the terminal. I am pretty sure the original construction has the (internal) coil wire soldered to that flag connector and not dependent on just a riveted connection. So it is not that difficult to re-solder it. Use fine sandpaper or emery cloth to clean the surface area around the rivet and the top of the rivet. Then use some rosin flux and solder and a good soldering iron and you can get it done. Have you soldered anything before?

I assume there is a green/white wire connected to that extra terminal on your existing solenoid and that you have a ballast resistor next to the ignition coil. If so then you'll want your solenoid to have that extra terminal, so repairing your existing one is a good solution. Ken has explained the purpose of that extra terminal.

Tom

 

[Acollin]

It appears the consensus is that my selinoid is the problem. I am a very literal guy so I still have a few questions.

Tom: The soldering is still a bit confusing for me. Did you disassemble the unit to solder a wire to the flag terminal? I have soldered before but I am not certain what needs to be soldered to what.

Ken: The staking: I understand the concept. Is it likely that I will crack the plastic by doing the external punch?
Will this process, if done correctly, secure the not seen wire to the flag connector?
If I disassemble the unit, is it better to punch the backed up flag connector or solder the connector where things are loose?

There is a green/ white wire connected to that "other" terminal. It runs along the fire wall to the coil. What would I need to do to install the selinoid without the extra tab. How important is the cold start feature?

I think I should be planning to replace the selinoid.
How hard is it to find working original equipment? ---That button is a life savor.
Is there a place I can send it for a reliable rebuild of the selinoid?

Thanks again for all the information and the promise of more to come. You guys make me think leaving Ohio all those years ago might have been a mistake. I grew up in Cleveland-- Mom is bumping 90 and still" Rootes "for the Indians.

Andrew

 

[Tom H]

Andrew, I assume from your description that the flag is wobbly on the solenoid, not that the connector on the red /white wire wobbles on the flag riveted to the solenoid body, right?

Let me explain. That flag is connected internally to the copper coil inside the solenoid. The end of the copper wire that makes up the internal coil is soldered to that flag. Once you remove that solenoid and look closely at that flag terminal, you will see that the center of the rivet that attaches the flag to the solenoid is filled with solder. That solder joint connected the inner coil to the rivet and to the flag. It's been a while since I fixed mine, but I think the problem was that the solder to the rivet is good, but the rivet is loose to the flag. All I did was clean the area of the flag material around the rivet and lightly clean the top of the solder I could see in the rivet. Then heat the flag and solder and add fresh flux and solder so that the solder actually bridges to the flag and not just the rivet. The plastic top of the solenoid is bakelite, so it will handle a good bit of heat without melting. It will handle heat better than hammering so I think resoldering is better than restaking.

No disassembly required.

Tom

 

[Tom H]

Fixing the old solenoid removes any issue about the green white wire. But if you end up replacing the solenoid with one that has no extra terminal, then disconnect that Green / white wire at both ends. You will likely have no problems unless you try to start your car in the winter, and even then not so likely a problem. That extra terminal and green white wire bypass the ballast resistor to increase the coil voltage back to full battery voltage while the starter is cranking. Understand that the load of starter cranking reduces the battery voltage to about 10 v while cranking. While running (and not cranking) the ballast resistor reduces the voltage to the coil to about 10V, which is the voltage the coil needs for full spark.

Tom

PS, Andrew, where do you live now?

 

[Acollin]

I think I get it.

Simply clean/rough up the area where the flag and a small " button" come together and ad some solder so the flag does not wobble at the connection.

Detaching the green/ white wire and tossing in the other selinoid could be the quick fix I am looking for for now or until I can source a replacement selinoid if I botch the repair. Just detach the wire at both ends and use the alternative I have-- pretty simple. The likelyhood of my car being on the road in winter is slim at best. Having grown up in Northeastern Ohio, I understand cold weather and hard starts. My dad would plug in an oil pan warmer on his Dodge to ease the cranking when the oil would thicken. Here in western Oregon we have to drive to winter. I live outside of Sandy, Oregon at about 1300 feet in elevation in the Cascade foothills. We get snow on occasion and temps can drop into the 20s for a day or two but our winter is more like an Ohio spring thaw. 30 miles away the snow piles up quickly. I live about 30 /40 minutes away from 3 ski areas.

Thanks-- will keep you posted on the progress!!!

 

[Tom H]

Yes, you have it- just about. But make sure you get a good bond of the solder to the flag. Apply the heat from the soldering iron to the flag material. Be sure your iron is tinned and has solder on it to get good heat flow to the flag.

Tom

 

[Ken Ellis]

Best choice is to solder. Maybe practice on a similarly-sized terminal, to make sure your soldering iron and technique are up-to snuff. Clean is good, and use rosin (not acid) flux to help the job, and keep things still until the solder has cooled. A good joint will be shiny, a bad joint will be dull-looking. Moving it while cooling will mean it doesn't 'take' well (called a cold solder joint) and you'll need to re-heat to achieve a good bond.

There are probably some YouTube videos out there covering soldering if you'd like a refresher. Good luck!

 

[hartmandm]

Detaching the green/ white wire and tossing in the other selinoid could be the quick fix I am looking for for now or until I can source a replacement selinoid if I botch the repair. Just detach the wire at both ends and use the alternative I have-- pretty simple.

FYI - You can continue using your replacement solenoid which lacks the connector for the white+green wire and still have the cold weather starting feature. Just connect the white+green wire to the white+red wire at the solenoid.

Mike