Standard brake discs

[64beam]

Hi,

I have been noticing some shuddering when braking. I have checked all the front end of the Tiger to make sure everything is tight, but found my discs were not great . I have purchased a new set of standard rotors and considered having grooves cut into them (I have heard the grooves will help with cooling and expelling the brake dust). My Tiger has standard brakes with a very good firm pedal in excellent order, so I don't see the point in a brakes upgrade. Has anyone tried grooving standard rotors with their Tiger?

Thanks, Robin.

 

[puff4]

I would not do it. Original discs are getting harder and harder to find, and I don't think you'll gain enough performance to warrant the amount of reduced life of the disc.

 

[64beam]

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for the reply. I thought grooving the discs was supposed to increase the life of the disc by improving the cooling. I understand that it will not improve it by a huge amount, but it would be more efficient than the standard ones.

Regards, Robin.

 

[puff4]

Not sure grooving improves disc life - it does prevent pad chatter under extreme braking conditions by allowing the pads to out-gas. But unless you're running your Alpine in a race, I see little advantage and only disadvantage.

 

[64beam]

Hi,

I have been doing some searching on the net and from what I can find, the only draw back I can see is that they are hard on disc pads. As stated, the slotted rotors move gas, heat and water away from the surface of the rotor. Please note that I am talking about a Tiger and not an Alpine (an extra 200 Kg's over the front). I can put up with reduced pad life, what other disadvantages are there?

Thanks, Robin.

 

[alpine_64]

Hi,
My Tiger has standard brakes with a very good firm pedal in excellent order, so I don't see the point in a brakes upgrade. Has anyone tried grooving standard rotors with their Tiger?

Thanks, Robin.

by grooving stock rotors you are trying to uograde.. why didnt you just buy some of the vented rotors that work with the stock setup, Dale sells them IIRC. Why try venting stock rotors instead of buying ones that were made that way.

 

[64beam]

by grooving stock rotors you are trying to uograde.. why didnt you just buy some of the vented rotors that work with the stock setup, Dale sells them IIRC. Why try venting stock rotors instead of buying ones that were made that way.

Michael,
I do know of Dale's kits, but I had concerns about spacing the calipers to allow for the wider disc rotors. I ask the question regarding that particular kit, but I had little/no response from people on this forum (unsure of its popularity). As I said, I don't want to go for a full brake upgrade or an unknown. The brakes on the Tiger are very good, I just want to improve what I have. I still have to make some more enquiries, as the standard disc rotors may be too thin to machine.
Regards, Robin.

 

[gordonra]

I spoke with an engineer at Wilwood regarding drilled and grooved rotors about a year ago.

His explanation to me was that the outgassing wasn't as big of a problem as everyone first thought. He said that drilling was done to help the outgassing issue, but since it wasn't a substantial improvement in performance, they moved to other measures.

Cutting grooves in the rotor did help breaking performance, but not because of outgassing, rather for increased leading edge area of the pad. The grooves are cut at an angle to a radial line which extends the leading surface edge of the pad as it passes over the groove. What he did not say, however I imagine would be true, is that the pad would wear faster than a non-grooved setup.


Rich

 

[64beam]

Cutting grooves in the rotor did help breaking performance, but not because of outgassing, rather for increased leading edge area of the pad. The grooves are cut at an angle to a radial line which extends the leading surface edge of the pad as it passes over the groove. What he did not say, however I imagine would be true, is that the pad would wear faster than a non-grooved setup.


Rich

Thanks for the reply Rich. What you have written is basically what I had found when searching the net. The grooves give the pads a 'micro' skim which helps them from glazing up under hard braking. In extreme cases, cross drilling can cause the disc to fracture as well, but recovers quicker when hot. Did the engineer give any other disadvantages?

Thanks, Robin.

 

[gordonra]

He didn't say anything negative about grooves that I can recall. He did indicate that all, or almost all of their rotors were going gooved.

I imagine that the number/spacing of grooves on the rotor would be critical for vibration and wear.

It would be cool to see if they would do a small production run of rotors for the Alpines and Tigers. Maybe someone with all the data could contact them?

 

[64beam]

He didn't say anything negative about grooves that I can recall. He did indicate that all, or almost all of their rotors were going gooved.

I imagine that the number/spacing of grooves on the rotor would be critical for vibration and wear.

It would be cool to see if they would do a small production run of rotors for the Alpines and Tigers. Maybe someone with all the data could contact them?

Hi Rich,

EBC have a listing for Alpine and Tiger (D214) for a standard disc rotor, but I don't know if they are slotted. They are also VERY expensive.

Regards, Robin.

 

[alpine_64]

Michael,
I do know of Dale's kits, but I had concerns about spacing the calipers to allow for the wider disc rotors. I ask the question regarding that particular kit, but I had little/no response from people on this forum (unsure of its popularity). As I said, I don't want to go for a full brake upgrade or an unknown. The brakes on the Tiger are very good, I just want to improve what I have. I still have to make some more enquiries, as the standard disc rotors may be too thin to machine.
Regards, Robin.

Rob,

1. If you want to know about Dales kit, maybe you should contact Dale? He can tell you what is needed to fit his rotors. He has 3 kits i know of, one of which is just upgraded rotors.
As for the populatirty of his kits, they are very popuular and good quality, try asking Tiger people, many have gone with his setup. His base kit is not as you put it "a full upgrade" just rotors.

2. If you were happy with how the brakes are/were working then just get stock rotors.. when you say you may as well improve them if you can.. then get better rotors, mucking around with mod'ing stock ones seems like more work than getting some that are a known quantity.. like Dales.

 

[64beam]

Rob,

1. If you want to know about Dales kit, maybe you should contact Dale? He can tell you what is needed to fit his rotors. He has 3 kits i know of, one of which is just upgraded rotors.
As for the populatirty of his kits, they are very popuular and good quality, try asking Tiger people, many have gone with his setup. His base kit is not as you put it "a full upgrade" just rotors.

2. If you were happy with how the brakes are/were working then just get stock rotors.. when you say you may as well improve them if you can.. then get better rotors, mucking around with mod'ing stock ones seems like more work than getting some that are a known quantity.. like Dales.

I know the three kits and I'm not interested in the Dale's wilwood upgrades as I will never put my Tiger on a track, so I don't see the point in the expense. The Dale's vented disc upgrade, while within my price range has some concerns regarding the calliper spacers. It is those concerns that turn me off that kit.
I AM more than happy with my brake system and with the stock rotors and if I can improve the rotors by a simple modification, that's my choice. If the rotors are not suitable for the modification, I will stick with stock rotors.

 

[alpine_64]

The Dale's vented disc upgrade, while within my price range has some concerns regarding the calliper spacers. It is those concerns that turn me off that kit.

You keep saying there are concerns about the caliper spacers.. what are these concerns? Do you know of problems, do you suspect problems? Have you spoken to Dale to ask about whats requireds to fit them?

As for the willwood setups being only useful for the track.. just wait till you want an emergency stop when some moron pulls out infront of you.. I can say that those willwoods have stopped me in a distance that my alpine wouldn't have pulled up in. As a side note, the willwood setup while good would still not be as good as many modern family saloons stock brakes anyway.. but i'll take what improvement i can get.

 

[MikeH]

I replaced the rotors on my 65 Mustang (289 V8 with factory manual front disk brakes with 4 pot calipers) with grooved rotors. It seemed to improve the braking over the standard disks, especially under hard braking.

 

[66Tiger]

I have Dale's Vented Upgrade on my Tiger.

Installation was straight forward with no problems. Only driven the car 100 miles on the brakes, so I am not able to tell you about any differences in stopping quality.

I do sleep a bit better knowing I have better brakes but not that much, I feel safer in my MINI Cooper with 6 air bags and 4 wheel discs.

Paul

I know the three kits and I'm not interested in the Dale's wilwood upgrades as I will never put my Tiger on a track, so I don't see the point in the expense. The Dale's vented disc upgrade, while within my price range has some concerns regarding the calliper spacers. It is those concerns that turn me off that kit.
I AM more than happy with my brake system and with the stock rotors and if I can improve the rotors by a simple modification, that's my choice. If the rotors are not suitable for the modification, I will stick with stock rotors.

 

[64beam]

You keep saying there are concerns about the caliper spacers.. what are these concerns? Do you know of problems, do you suspect problems? Have you spoken to Dale to ask about whats requireds to fit them?

As for the willwood setups being only useful for the track.. just wait till you want an emergency stop when some moron pulls out infront of you.. I can say that those willwoods have stopped me in a distance that my alpine wouldn't have pulled up in. As a side note, the willwood setup while good would still not be as good as many modern family saloons stock brakes anyway.. but i'll take what improvement i can get.

Let me get one thing straight, I am not bagging Dale's products. My concerns aren't the disc replacement as that is straight forward. The concern I have is modifying the brake caliper. I have spoken to a brake specialist who did not recommend it and secondly I just don't feel comfortable with that mod on the Tiger (other people might be comfortable with them and that's fine). As for your Tiger, that is a different story to my Tiger. As for moron's, your brakes will not always save you. Have I justified myself enough now!!

 

[64beam]

I replaced the rotors on my 65 Mustang (289 V8 with factory manual front disk brakes with 4 pot calipers) with grooved rotors. It seemed to improve the braking over the standard disks, especially under hard braking.

Thanks for your reply Mike, that combination will definitely work a whole lot better. How do you find your pad life with the grooved rotors?

Regards, Robin.

 

[64beam]

I have Dale's Vented Upgrade on my Tiger.

Installation was straight forward with no problems. Only driven the car 100 miles on the brakes, so I am not able to tell you about any differences in stopping quality.

I do sleep a bit better knowing I have better brakes but not that much, I feel safer in my MINI Cooper with 6 air bags and 4 wheel discs.

Paul

Thanks for the reply Paul. There is definitely something about four wheels disc's (and late model cars) for stopping power. My wife's 2007 Focus also has great brakes.

Regards, Robin.

 

[alpine_64]

Let me get one thing straight, I am not bagging Dale's products. My concerns aren't the disc replacement as that is straight forward. The concern I have is modifying the brake caliper. I have spoken to a brake specialist who did not recommend it and secondly I just don't feel comfortable with that mod on the Tiger (other people might be comfortable with them and that's fine). As for your Tiger, that is a different story to my Tiger. As for moron's, your brakes will not always save you. Have I justified myself enough now!!

Rob,

I give up.. i have asked you that many times without answer.. where did you hear you had to modify the calipers? I thought that the basic dales vented kit was a simple bolt on and go upgrade.. you keep saying you have concerns, I keep asking where you heard this or is this an assumeption.. no answer..

Pauls response to you seems to indicate they are a straight forward bolt on..

As for your car.. you added a 4bbl carb, elec igntion.. so perhaps you should consider upgrading the brakes anyway.. not my car not my call.. I was just trying to help you.. you were seemingly going to go down a harder path than need be, i was questioning where your concerns about what is a known quanity were coming from...

Tell us how you go with what you do and keep us posted with your progres.