• Welcome to the new SAOCA website. Already a member? Simply click Log In/Sign Up up and to the right and use your same username and password from the old site. If you've forgotten your password, please send an email to membership@sunbeamalpine.org for assistance.

    If you're new here, click Log In/Sign Up and enter your information. We'll approve your account as quickly as possible, typically in about 24 hours. If it takes longer, you were probably caught in our spam/scam filter.

    Enjoy.

Spring advice

A

AlpineIan

I'm working on Tedder's race car and need to do something about his springs. The car is really lifting through the turns and we need to stiffen it up. I would like to know what some of you are doing here...

I just purchased a rear sway bar that is not yet installed and the suspension on the car now is front and rear Tiger Koni's, stock front springs (sv), stock rear springs.

Looking for the best configuration... advice?
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
If its truly lifting, the suspension is too stiff, not too loose.

I have a set of Pantera front springs with a rate of 385 lbs/inch, spax and a 7/8 sway bar.

Rear, I have the stock SII rear springs, no bar and stock lever shocks with a modified damper valve.


The stock rear springs are plenty stiff to match up with the high rate pantera springs and the 7/8 bar.

Overall, its pretty neutral but the stiffness of the car on the whole makes for interesting times when hitting bumps in a hard turn.
 

Ken Ellis

Donation Time
Ian,
You know, I noticed that when we watched him race last year
at MidOhio.

(Close your eyes while I crawl way out on a limb here...)

Non-racer blather follows:

Have you weighed the car in race trim? I know it's much lighter
than stock, but if it's so light that the springs aren't loaded enough,
ride height (and therefore steering geometry?) may be compromised.
Kind of like a trailer misbehaves when it doesn't have enough weight
on it.

The rear springs might be correctly loaded only when the weight transfer
to the rear during acceleration is happening. It might be worthwhile
checking if the 50/50 weight distribution still the case. (A hydraulic
pressure gauge on a floor jack should be close enough... You
could even calibrate it in pounds, if you wish.)

I don't know what you're allowed to do in the class you run in,
but could you go to the earlier narrow rear springs (which I assume
would be rated for less weight)? Can you do the lowered spindles
on the front, in addition to 'weaker' springs? It seems that if the car
sat lower, the aerodynamics may be improved as well.

Keep in mind, of course, that the only race car I've ever driven
is on my son's PS2, so this advice is worth every cent you paid for it...

If you need a supply of 'pre-weakened' springs, you need only look
on the driver's side of our 40-year-old cars.

Ken in Columbus
Home of wild guesses.
 
A

AlpineIan

The front wheels are not leaving the ground, but the body is lifting up very high. That's an interesting comment Jared... you are right and I had not thought about it being too stiff to cause wheel lift. I think I will try an early series set of springs in the front and this rear bar. Maybe thay will help with the body roll and make him happy.

While we are talking about springs. I have a set of the competition springs that belong to the Kimes car. They are very short... 9" tall if I recall correctly... but the cross member was cracked. I've been told that these springs are the cause of that. IMHO it's rare to find a cracked Alpine crossmember... unlike the Tiger. Any comments on these springs... I think Steve S has a set too.
 

britbeam

Donation Time
If its truly lifting, the suspension is too stiff, not too loose.

I have a set of Pantera front springs with a rate of 385 lbs/inch, spax and a 7/8 sway bar.

Rear, I have the stock SII rear springs, no bar and stock lever shocks with a modified damper valve.


The stock rear springs are plenty stiff to match up with the high rate pantera springs and the 7/8 bar.

Overall, its pretty neutral but the stiffness of the car on the whole makes for interesting times when hitting bumps in a hard turn.

Could you tell us how the dampner valve is modified?
Dwain V6 Krazy
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
The front wheels are not leaving the ground, but the body is lifting up very high. That's an interesting comment Jared... you are right and I had not thought about it being too stiff to cause wheel lift. I think I will try an early series set of springs in the front and this rear bar. Maybe thay will help with the body roll and make him happy.

While we are talking about springs. I have a set of the competition springs that belong to the Kimes car. They are very short... 9" tall if I recall correctly... but the cross member was cracked. I've been told that these springs are the cause of that. IMHO it's rare to find a cracked Alpine crossmember... unlike the Tiger. Any comments on these springs... I think Steve S has a set too.

In this case, what you describe is "body roll", not lifting.

With front body roll, you will need higher rate springs, and likely a higher rate bar.

Lifting is when in a turn (and typically under power), the outside front wheel will actually leave the ground, as commanded by the sway bar. This is not always a big problem since its still possible to yield neutral handling with only one front wheel on the ground.

It is when you can "lift" the wheel when it is crystal clear that a rear bar is in order since the rear bar will put counterforce on the front, which checks the frontal lifting.

The earlier springs do have a higher rate than the later ones, but not greatly so, and only becuase the upper control arm pivot ratio was different when they went to the rubber bushed suspension.
 

serIIalpine

Donation Time
Jarrid

Do you use the straps on the rear axles and if you do do you use them at a different length than spec?

I found that I cut up my sidewalls on my rear fenders when I drove without them. (Yes I know I can roll this over with a baseball bat) They sort of act like an anti sway bar in the way the limit the travel of the axle don't they?

Mine pulled loose again and when I redo them I might try something different.

Thanks

Eric

'62 SerII
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Jarrid

Do you use the straps on the rear axles and if you do do you use them at a different length than spec?

I found that I cut up my sidewalls on my rear fenders when I drove without them. (Yes I know I can roll this over with a baseball bat) They sort of act like an anti sway bar in the way the limit the travel of the axle don't they?

Mine pulled loose again and when I redo them I might try something different.

Thanks

Eric

'62 SerII


I have no idea why not running the rear straps would tear up your sidewalls.
Perhaps your leaf springs are worn and you are having side deflection on cornering.

A rear bar would not cure this, and the straps themselves act in no way like a sway bar. They in fact only prevent the axle spring from damaging the shocks on rebound.
 

serIIalpine

Donation Time
I do run 185-60-13 tires which are wider than stock but you might be right there might be to much side to side play.

Oh great. Now I need new leaf springs. Where am I supposed to find them?

Eric

'62 SerII
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
I do run 185-60-13 tires which are wider than stock but you might be right there might be to much side to side play.

Oh great. Now I need new leaf springs. Where am I supposed to find them?

Eric

'62 SerII

The play will come from the spring insulators and loose rubbers and clamps.

If the spring rate is good (leafs not broken and the rear sagging) then send the spring out to have it rebuilt with new insulators, rubbers and clamps.

I run 205-60-13 tires and my tires dont rub the fenders, they do on REALLY hard corners rub on the insides of the chassis where the lever shock bolts are.
BUt these are super sticky racing tires and if it really bothered me, I'd install a panhard rod or watts linkage.

Perhaps your wheel offset is not right?
 

serIIalpine

Donation Time
I do know this:

If I grab a fin in each hand and rock the car left and right there's a fair amount of play.

The rims while not stock don't seem to have much offset as they have about a 1" lip and then a slight dish to the cast spoke portion.

How much offset is stock.

I never had stock wheels so I have no idea what it is.

What do you do about the straps.

The 205 width tires are OK in the front?

Too bad you moved I seem to have the Webers dialed in finally. It would have been nice to drive up the Angeles Crest or something.
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
What do you do about the straps.

The 205 width tires are OK in the front?

Too bad you moved I seem to have the Webers dialed in finally. It would have been nice to drive up the Angeles Crest or something.

Straps? I havnt had them on in years.

205 in the front is fine, they can foul the front valance, in which case you just roll it underneath like all the tiger guys did.

Yeah, My car is still in Fullerton since the movers royally screwed me over on move day when they wouldnt take it.
I need to get the car out here so I can play with it ( I spent more time playing with the alpine in the week leading up to the move than in the past 7 years).

I really should do a writeup about my recent work on the alpine, its quite a story.
 

serIIalpine

Donation Time
If your car stays here in SoCal until October you should try to make it on the SoCalTT.

I've done it a bunch of times and it's a total blast.

There's a movie I shot from on the site:

SoCalTT.com

What brand 205's are you using?

Thanks for the info.

Eric
'62 SerII
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
If your car stays here in SoCal until October you should try to make it on the SoCalTT.

What brand 205's are you using?
'62 SerII

Car wont be staying long in SoCal.
It sits in my father in laws garage awaiting shipment here.
Before I ship it, I have to clean the fuel cell of varnish, and to replace a leaking water pump. Therefore I will be out there soon for the fixes and to arrange shipment.


Yokohama A008RSII, out of production as far as I know.
VERY sticky tires, wear rating of 35 IIRC.
 

serIIalpine

Donation Time
Ah yes the a008

I had a set on a GTI once. great tires.

Looks like I'm going with a set of Sumitomos as no one else makes a
13" tire that isn't specifically a racing tire or a pep boys special.

Eric
 

serIIalpine

Donation Time
If the spring rate is good (leafs not broken and the rear sagging) then send the spring out to have it rebuilt with new insulators, rubbers and clamps.

I know about the rubbers and clamps but where are the insulators? Do you mean the bushings in the spring eye?

Thanks

Eric

'62 SerII
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
I know about the rubbers and clamps but where are the insulators? Do you mean the bushings in the spring eye?

Thanks

Eric

'62 SerII

No, each leaf is separated from the others by nylon insulators, this keeps the leafs from rubbing and keeps the friction and squeeks down.
 

serIIalpine

Donation Time
Do you have a place in So Cal you can recommend to do this rebuilding or where I can get the insulators and do it myself?

Thanks

Eric

'62 SerII
 
Top