SIV Voltage Regulator

[Scotty]

To preface, my SIV was a positive ground car that was switched to negative long before I bought it. The engine in it now is a 1725.


So I've gotten a brand new battery because Autozone honors their warranties like that. Checked the Generator and it spins and gives out voltage but... the battery doesn't charge. I'm now looking at the wires attaching to the Voltage Regulator and the Regulator itself (I have heard it called a Dynamo as well, so if that's what it's referred to as, please correct me.)

The wires attached to the generator look solid but could do with some cleaning. The connectors on the bottom of the VR look abit rusty, so I'm going to unplug it, cleaned the connectors and open it to see the condition and taking someone's advice, I'm not touching or changing a damn thing.

What kind of experience have you had with your VR? Are these reliable units or should I look for a different type to put in? I see no reason atm to put in a Generator (Plus I'm not trying to spend money unless I have to and an Alternator is in this car's future). Are there any tips ofrsuggestions that would help make this VR run or is it one of those things that, when it starts acting funny, to toss out and buy a new one? I ask only because it proudly procliams itself a LUCAS product on the cover lol.

 

[Tom H]

Checked the Generator and it spins and gives out voltage but... the battery doesn't charge.

How much voltage? How do you know it doesn't charge? Can you provide more specifics as to what tests you have done and what results did you find?

For example can you reply to my earlier post:
"Does your Alpine have an ammeter installed in the dash? If so you can watch that and see if the needle goes positive when running, which would indicate the charging system is working. But surely your Alpine has a red Ignition lamp, next to the ignition key. It should light up as soon as you turn the key to the ON position. If not you have a wiring error or bad lamp bulb. Then when the engine is running the lamp should go OFF, or at least go dim and then off when the engine is revved up a bit. If it stays on, you have a problem in your charging system- it's not charging. If the charging system is not working it could be 1) The generator itself, most likely needs new brushes, or 2) it could be the Control Box, or 3) it could be a missing , broken, or disconnected wire. You really need a multimeter to troubleshoot the system . You can get one for under $10 at Harbor Freight, or a better, more reliable, one on Amazon or Sears, or Home Depot, etc. Then follow the diagnostics that Don suggested above."

 

[Scotty]

Damn it, I'm sorry for coming off disrespectful and ignoring your post. My mind's bounced all over creation on this and I've been frustrated because I need Chitty to be drivable. So here's what I got:

* Ignition Light went on and stayed on when I made the run to DMV and halfway back when the car lost power and I had to have it towed home. It cut out earlier that day and my gf had the battery charged at Autozone while I waited with the car. Later that night, maybe 5-6 hours later, I was able to start the car up with no problem.

* Took the old battery back, used the warranty and got a new battery.

* Took off, cleaned and put back on the voltage regulator. The wires that are plugged into it look good but the VS' connectors are corroded. Carefully cleaned those. Checked ground and it's nice and shiny silver metal.

* Tested the Generator alone. I took the cables off, hooked up a wire between both connectors, used a Multimeter and following a video grounded the negative terminal on the body of the car and the positive on the wire. Started the car. The Multi read between 2-3. When I revved, the Meter immediately jumped to high 13 - low 14, so I am pretty sure the Generator is good because I've heard they don't charge jack at idle, unlike an Alternator. Correct me if I'm wrong on this one.

* Checked the wires running from the Generator to the VS and from the VS across and to the battery box. The wires all looked to have been changed at some point and look very new and not worn. The kid I bought it...*whispers* 13 years ago *whispers* from said his father changed everything out with new stuff and it all still looks that way.

I did not do a check on the VS itself because I'm going to order one anyway given how shoddy the back looks. I did not open it.

I've ran around like a dog chasing its tail on this but all the symptoms of a bad VS are inherent in my car:

* Dim lights.
* Instrument cluster non-operational (Speedo works after I hit 20mph (got a new cable to put in), but the Tach is dead (Yes all panel lights work)
* Rough engine idle (stalls at stop lights though I can't say it's that or an adjustment issue with my Weber, but I'll throw it here)

That's where I'm at so far. Thoughts?

 

[loose_electron]

Original generator and voltage regulator setup? My initial take would be to get a modern single wire alternator setup and be done with it. To get good charging to the battery You need to get about 14.2 volts on the battery while charging, That's 14.2 AT the battery when the battery is near full charge. Depending on the impedance of the generator and the controller setup, the voltage may be lower while charging but it should top out at about 14.2. A healthy battery should show at 13.6 V when fully charged and nothing loading it down.

 

[Scotty]

Original generator and voltage regulator setup? My initial take would be to get a modern single wire alternator setup and be done with it. To get good charging to the battery You need to get about 14.2 volts on the battery while charging, That's 14.2 AT the battery when the battery is near full charge. Depending on the impedance of the generator and the controller setup, the voltage may be lower while charging but it should top out at about 14.2. A healthy battery should show at 13.6 V when fully charged and nothing loading it down.

Due to cash issues, I'd like to fix this first to make sure the problem I'm having is solved before anything else. Beyond that...

How would I wire this up and do you have any suggestions for a good alternator that would bolt in to what I have? This is entirely new to me.

 

[husky drvr]

* Instrument cluster non-operational (Speedo works after I hit 20mph (got a new cable to put in), but the Tach is dead (Yes all panel lights work)

That's where I'm at so far. Thoughts?

Scotty,

The tach is dead, not just not working. The tach is electronic and designed for positive ground in a S IV. When the battery grounding was changed to negative, if the tach was still connected in circuit without any changes, some internal components probably fried themselves. The speedo is strictly a mechanical unit, except for internal lighting. The temp and fuel gauges are powered by a dedicated power supply under the dash. Those OE units are known to be problematic. Until you can check and verify the constant voltage supply under the dash is properly functional, the fuel/temp gauges aren't a big concern (fuel/temp are not polarity sensitive). Getting the car running properly is a bigger priority before troubleshooting things dependent on proper operation of the main electrical system. Gauge lighting is independent of gauge operation, except for grounding of the case( I think).

Tom H is very good with these systems, if you are patient and willing to work with him.

HTH

 

[Tom H]

Scotty, no offense taken, just want you to understand that without clear and complete description of what you have done to troubleshoot and what you have found, it's very hard to suggest solutions.. Much better job in your last post.

You mention VS, I assume you mean VR, Voltage Regulator or you could use the term Control Box , as that is what the WSM (Work Shop Manual)calls it . From your test, it does seem the Generator is working, but that simple voltage test you did is not a complete test. I think your Autozone could do a more complete Load test on it.

Have you looked up (and maybe downloaded) WSM 124, the WSM for your car? It's right here on this website. Here's link to the electrical section:http://sunbeamalpine.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/15-Electrical-System-N.pdf

And here's a link to the SIV wiring diagram on the site as well:
http://sunbeamalpine.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/s4_diagram.pdf

Regarding swap to an alternator , it will cost about the same as a new VR. I have used a rebuilt Alt from a 1980 Datsun/Nissan 210 pickup truck. Available from Advance, AutoZone and others for about $60-$75. I can send detailed instructions for the swap. It require also changing the main mounting bracket to one from a SV Alpine.

Re the tach, perhaps the previous owner did change its polarity and maybe miswired it. There is a common problem with owners not wiring it in correctly. Even if the polarity was not changed before running it, it most likely did not ruin it. We can work on that issue after you get the charging system fixed. I can take a look at you tach later.

Send me your phone number via Private Message.

Tom, in Lakewood, OH

 

[loose_electron]

Due to cash issues, I'd like to fix this first to make sure the problem I'm having is solved before anything else. Beyond that...

How would I wire this up and do you have any suggestions for a good alternator that would bolt in to what I have? This is entirely new to me.

Like Tom H says, getting a modern alternator that drops in there is pretty straightforward and not expensive. My S2 has a V6 in it so I am the wrong person to suggest a particular alternator for the original engine. I suspect a bunch of people on here can recommend cheap and easily fitted alternators.

Old style generators and regulator setups were frequently fussy, prone to errors and failures. (I spent the early 70's fixing a lot of these in British and French cars) Modern alternators are bolt them in, put the V-belt on, and one heavy wire goes to the battery, usually connected at the starter solenoid/relay. Done. Easier than the old systems with the outboard regulator, it's all built into the alternator.

 

[Scotty]

Update: I got the new Voltage Regulator today. Put it in, plugged everything in.

Before I swapped it out my ignition light stayed red. After replacing the VR the light comes on red and then fluctuates. When I give it gas, the light goes away entirely. Is this evident of the car charging? The Multimeter seems to agree that the battery is getting juice when I accelerate.

An odd thing that happened was I had thought I had somehow sheared off the smaller prong on the back of the Generator, only to find that I somehow pushed it into the Generator abit. Used a pair of tweezers and pulled it back out. Strange.

I am going to be installing an Alternator when I get paid. Getting pretty tired of 50's-60's electronics. This is a daily driver and once it's sorted out, I'm going abit more modern with it.

 

[Tom H]

After replacing the VR the light comes on red and then fluctuates. When I give it gas, the light goes away entirely. Is this evident of the car charging? The Multimeter seems to agree that the battery is getting juice when I accelerate.

Yup, That's what I said few days ago: "Then when the engine is running the lamp should go OFF, or at least go dim and then off when the engine is revved up a bit."

 

[mikephillips]

In case you're curious, a generator develops a fairly small voltage when the car is at idle so the ignition light, with no other voltage using things like lights or radio, may come on at idle. As engine speed increases and the generator runs faster the voltage output increases to peak. When the ignition light goes out will depend on what you may have turned on that uses electricity. An alternator will develop it's max output at about idle and stay there as engine speed increases. An alternator will also usually have a higher output than a generator allowing you to have more accessories and use modern things like phone charging or gps if you want.

 

[Scotty]

Yup, That's what I said few days ago: "Then when the engine is running the lamp should go OFF, or at least go dim and then off when the engine is revved up a bit."

I just wanted to make sure things were right, why I gave a thorough rundown of it. I have zero experience with Generators and I wanted to overexplain. The prong part freaked me out. I really thought I sheared it off and I got really nervous about pulling the prong slowly out of the back of the Generator so I could plug it back in. Thank you for your help on this!

 

[Scotty]

In case you're curious, a generator develops a fairly small voltage when the car is at idle so the ignition light, with no other voltage using things like lights or radio, may come on at idle. As engine speed increases and the generator runs faster the voltage output increases to peak. When the ignition light goes out will depend on what you may have turned on that uses electricity. An alternator will develop it's max output at about idle and stay there as engine speed increases. An alternator will also usually have a higher output than a generator allowing you to have more accessories and use modern things like phone charging or gps if you want.

Wow, that explains alot, thank you! I was considering putting some things in, but after your post, I'm going to run the car strictly car until I put in an Alternator. No radio, no nothing but car, lights and that's it.

 

[loose_electron]

Just a suggestion - Put a voltmeter at the battery and check the voltage there with the engine running at a cruising RPM. See my comments above on proper voltages.