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Should I let my son buy an Alpine to race?

Jay Laifman

Donation Time
Here's the story. My son is 11 and loves Alpines (among other cars). He and I have been taking racing lessons at Jim Hall Kart School (Jim is the son of Jim Hall of Chaparral fame). We've gone to various historic races over the years.

My sister has a Series II Alpines and wants to sell it and says she will sell it to him for $500. I think it's worth more than $500. It runs, is complete, and seems straight with no major rust readily apparent. But, it doesn't have the original paint or interior, and the interior needs work. The hardtop is complete and sound, but without the rear window. The wire wheels and hubs are there, but I expect worn out. Its last owner was a mechanic and his touches are apparent. Other than that, I don't know its history.

He wants to buy it and one day get into racing. First, I'm sure to race the thing, it needs to have a full redo, from brakes up. And, he certainly doesn't have the money for that, or even money to store it until he can even think about driving. But, it's a decent car for a great price. But, he's only 11.

Now aside from the age issue and storage issue, what's the world like for racing Alpines these days? I've told him to go to the web sites of Buttonwillow and Willow Springs and see what groups race there and when, and see what they would do with an Alpine.

It seems to me that aside from the faded glory days where there were some shining moments in Alpine racing history, it's really not the car to be out there racing. First, if the racing organization is strict about modifications available when the car was new, there really weren't any, and the Alpine will not be remotely competitive with any other car out there, like MGs, Triumphs. And, that's assuming that there are actually realistic classes, or if there are so few cars from that era that the class is so wide the Alpine is up against much faster cars. Not that he has to win, but being at the back of the pack every time with no chance of anything else is not good.

And, if there are stock classes, well, it probably wouldn't do much good either. And, then I assume that even if there are groups and classes with Alpines, they are probably very few times a year they actually get out there.

So, my question here is what is the reality of someone who wants to race an Alpine?

Thanks,
Jay
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Oh Jay, what fun....

I'd say go for it.

Some racing orgs do not require you to be licensed, that is they allow younger folks to get involved, but prolly in the 14 to 15 year old range, prolly not at 11.

One thing to keep in mind is that MANY racing orgs want the car to have history, many require a period log book as proof. Not all do, VARA for one does not.

It takes time and serious coin to get a car race ready and at 11, that could be a good motivator towards earning extra money to match your likely subsidized contributions. Dont skimp on safety equipment.


Definitely good luck.
 

Series6

Past President
Gold Level Sponsor
Respectfully submitted

For what it's worth, I would have loved to have a project I could have worked on with my Dad. Either one. Long story short, I "lost" my father at 4 and my step father (although a great man) and I had no similar interests. We did very little together.

Even if the thing never gets on the track, I'd go for it.
 

lgurley

Donation Time
If your son wants to do anything together with you, make it your life's goal. Cars can come and go but the relationship between father and son can never be replaced. Do it together.
 

puff4

Platinum Level Sponsor
Ditto what the other guys have said. I wish my two sons were more interested in my car hobby, but, sadly, they aren't. But my dad and I had a lot of fun restoring a 1965 Chevelle Malibu together and it was great!
 

Jay Laifman

Donation Time
All good points. The reality is that the biggest problem is finding a place to put it for 5+ years. The second biggest problem is that while he is 11, he's been saving birthday money, and allowance for chores, and he has just over $500, but nothing more after that. I'm actually hoping that he will decide not to buy it and look for a car closer to what he wants when he is old enough to really do something about it. But, absent the storage issue, it's his money.

I actually got my first, and current, Alpine (at least parts of it) when I was 15.5. Well, actually, my dad got it for $100, we got it running, and he drove it for a year or so while we built a kit car for him - so I fully appreciate such a project with my kids. But, now I have both those cars, and two more, plus my wife's car, and am completely out of room! Adding another Alpine will cause my wife to explode!

I guess I'll have to look into the organizations that race at the closest places to see what rules are like and how they impact racing an Alpine. If anyone has done it, let me know. I keep pushing Miatas for him if he really wants to race. Not my favorite car in the world. But, you can't deny the racing world around them.
 

Chuck Ingram

Donation Time
We allready had our 63 GT.We got a series 5 for the 2 oldest boys when they were 13 and almost 12.Since they worked weekends on the job with me they could use part of the money to buy parts.They weren't into racing but oh boy was this a big carrot for them.If they didn't do their school work and chores they wouldn't have time to work on the car.If that happened they would not have it finished when the eldest turned 16 and got his drivers license.
What a proud day these 2 kids had because on that day they took it for a ride.Shortly after that we found rootes painted the inside of the gas tanks and they had to take them out.
The point of this is they learned to research a project.Lay things out in an orderly fashion.Set an see their goals achieved by their own work
we did this with the next 2 boys as well.All this has greatly stood them good in the world as all have great jobs.No mechanics or a painter like their father.
Jay go for it even if he never races
 

TulsaAlpine

Donation Time
Road Tracks and vintage racing!

In my area we have the Corinthian Vintage Racing at Hallett Motors Race Track. They allow older classic cars to race, most of the expense is the drivers outfit, helmet and then the mods to the old cars for safety. A few here on the forum are into such racing, but for the younger crowd they have the "High Speed Touring" which are the Mazda’s, S2000 Honda's etc. and basically all you need is a Snell approved helmet, but the more modern cars are not 500 dollars. I would have him research all of this, what it cost per car and all the accessories to do Vintage or High Speed then help him decide. Check with the track your using and see what requirements are needed and what type of racing for each type of cars and age. My viewpoint is to be involved with your son on a race track and not out doing something stupid on the streets, go for it!
Plan B just restore the old Alpine to a good daily driver and allow him to drive to school, what a cool thing to do!

Donna
:D
 
L

Lee DeRamus saoca0404

Jay,

I say go for it!! When I was that age, I had 2 great opertunities that my father would not go along with. A friends father had a 48 Packard with very low mileage. He said I could have the car for free. The ring and pinion gear were shot. I found a complete rear axle in the junk yard for $75 in a car that had been in a head on crash. "That's an orphan, You'll never find parts, No you can't have it'. The other was a 1932 Ford pickup in good condition again for $75. "No I hate Fords". I didn't buy anything except a Harley when I was 14 and he hated it. I don't think I resented him for it, but it would have been great to do things like this with him. He died when I was 17. I think it is important to try to get what HE wants, if possible, it's his dream. With a minum invested, he might then want to get something that would be more competeitve.
Lee
 

Armand4

Donation Time
My father, an ace mechanic who started working on cars when he was about ten, always held out getting a classic car as a "carrot" to get me to earn good grades. I'm told I'm a pretty smart guy, but I never really focused in school and I was constantly at odds with my parents over my grades. I will always regret not putting in that extra effort that could have gotten me a project car and quality time with my dad, and I'm sure it was just as heartbreaking for him. I wound up holding off on a project car until I was out of college, but last year (at age 23) I got my Alpine. And now my poor father's garage is filled with Alpine parts, which means my mom's Mercedes station wagon has to sleep outside!
Most kids nowadays don't learn any manual skills from their fathers-- I've been very lucky in this respect. If you work on a car with your son, you'll be doing him a huge favor. Even if he's not going to grow up to be a mechanic, he'll learn a hobby and get to bond with you, and every time he picks up a wrench he'll think of his father and his Alpine. When we work on my car together, my dad sometimes reminisces about learning to wrench with my grandfather and a '29 Ford AA truck, or about the Peugeot 404 he bought from my great-grandfather for $250 and kept running for 350,000 miles, selling it just before I was born for $500. Sometimes, he even gets a little misty-eyed. Sometimes, I do too.

Do it. If you pull the trigger, the worst thing that can happen is you have another beat-up old Alpine hanging around. If you don't, you might miss a great experience with your kid. As for racing, you might want to build a relatively mild car that can still be driven on the street (or to school) and raced on the weekends. You won't be invited to the Monterey Historics with a car that has no racing history, but there will be other opportunities to race and some vintage racing groups don't have such strict rules. I was talking to one of CSRG's eligibility people, and he said that if a car is mild enough to be driven on the street, they're not going to worry too much about displacement, carburetors etc. This is good for competitors, but it does mean that all the Porsche guys cheat with 1800cc 356 motors!

I'm not sure where in California Oak Park is, but in NorCal (where I'm from) I like CSRG, although they only do 4 weekends a year. I've heard VARA is fun too, and relatively low-buck ("relatively" being an important word here.)
 

Armand4

Donation Time
I forgot to mention-- Classic Motorsports did a few articles about kids restoring cars. The publisher's 14-year-old son bought a $200 Spitfire and did a low-buck rolling restoration on it. I talked to the publisher in Monterey, and he said that his son has since switched to an E30 BMW 325i-- the kid's got to go to school ten miles away on the interstate, so we can cut him some slack:rolleyes:-- but he's learned some valuable lessons about cars and life.
 

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
Hi Jay,

Might I suggest a cheaper form of racing? I know that I will probably ruffle some feathers. Drag racing is the cheapest form of racing that I can think of. You can race any kind of car you can think of, and still be successful. I started racing back in 1958, when I got my first license. The car I raced was a 1952 Willys sedan. Because it had a six cylinder and an overdrive, it had very low rear end gears, so was quick off the line. It raced in O stock (the lowest class at the time.) and I won most of the time I raced it.

Now this is where I am going to get into trouble. I would not suggest racing a stock Alpine, because I don't think it would take the gaff. I would suggest putting a more modern engine, V6 or 4 cyl., but something that won't come apart easily. I know that road racing is considered the holy grail by most of the guys on this board, but that form of racing takes a LOT of money and mosr road race cars aren't suitable for the street. Drag racing is fun and building a car to do that can be a good subject for a father and son project. The other thing about a drag racer, is that you can use the car on the street daily. I used my V6 Alpines every day for years, yet raced them almost every Sunday. I also tried out slaloming, but wasn't as good at that. The fault wasn't with the car, it was with me.

I just wanted to give you another option to your question. If you do drag race it, you will have great time at the races.

Jose :)
 

Jay Laifman

Donation Time
Great thoughts, one and all. Actually, he frequently asks if a car would be able to be run at Leguna Seca at the Historics. And, yes, I know how impossible that is.

I'm not having a hard time being convinced to do this, I'm just trying to figure out the right car. Yes, I've had my Alpine for 30 years. Yes, I have lots of Alpine stuff around. Yes, this is a great deal. Yes, a racing Alpine has its attraction. But, what I don't know is what it's like racing Alpines in today's historic racing world.

To be honest, last time we were at Buttonwillow, we saw some Super V or Formula V (I don't know the difference) racing. I thought those were extremely cool. I'm going to look into them. Other cars on the list include Porsche 912s and 914s. If most older car racing is limited to marque clubs, well, it's going to be hard to beat the Porsche schedule. But, better yet, it seems to me, is the Miata world. Or, maybe even a step back, and go for an MG TC or TD! Or course I have no misconseptions about the racing world for those era cars.

As to a V6, I have a VW kit car I built with my father 30 years ago. It now has a Fiero GT V6 in it, with full injection, computer, etc. I have been thinking of pulling it out and going back to a VW engine. The thought did cross my mind about dropping it in this S2. I have to figure Jose's kit won't do much good for that (if his kit is even available again). But, if it would, hmm......
 

Jay Laifman

Donation Time
Oh, and in addition to going to the Monterey Historics every year for the last 12 or so years, and lots of VARA and HMSA races, I can't remember the last time I saw an Alpine. I think it was in the early 90's when Steve Alcala had his former faux factory racer out there and blew up the block and had to run to Sunbeam Specialies to get one of the last new blocks Rick had in those days (from Iran, I think).

We've certainly seen Tigers from time to time.

Hmm, I should contact Dan Walters.
 

V6 JOSE

Donation Time
Unfortunately Jay,

I don't make a kit for the GM engines. My kit only fits the Ford 2.8 V6, so not even other Ford engines will fit with my kit. If you would like to go with the Ford 2.8, I'd love to help you with that project. :D

Jose :)
 

atallamcs

Donation Time
racing

So, my question here is what is the reality of someone who wants to race an Alpine?

Well, back to your original question. . . I hope it will be a fun and a novel experience. I have studied the many race Alpines, past and present and have seen what each person does to their cars--I then studied the various requirements of SCCA and other groups and built my car to those specs. It is still not done but shortly, and I have spent some money, so I hope the reality of racing an Alpine and occassionally winning is there.

Here are a few shots of my car:

http://rides.webshots.com/album/549351959eDGMeT

And with all your background, seems fitting and natural.

Bill
 

Series6

Past President
Gold Level Sponsor
Alpine Vintage raceer

Bill,

Love the color...

Why did you have louvers cut in the trunk lid?
 

atallamcs

Donation Time
Trunk louvers

Hi Nick,
The louvers help vent any gas fumes from the Fuel Cell and the fuel system components which are all located in the trunk.
Bill
 

Jay Laifman

Donation Time
Wow. Actually, I've seen some of those pictures before. But, they are especially nice now that they idea is in my mind. I'm curious. You have a side draft Weber on there. I would have assumed that would not be allowed in the various racing groups. What type of class in what organization do you plan on running?

Meanwhile, we did go see the car again today. I think he is off that car for various reasons. But, it could still be in the starts in a few years.

Then again, it did have what I thought was a very unusual color under the layers (see my post to the stock list). Maybe it's not gone yet.
 
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