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series 3 Trans Ratio

RootesRacer

Donation Time
By the way the limited slip axle has 9 large splines as oppose to the early Series Alpine 17 splines or later Series Alpine 25 splines.

You sure its not 10 splines?

The LSD unit (dana 23) has a 10 spline spider gears (side diff/clutch gear).
Anything other than that would require someone to fabricate a custom spider.
It would have made FAR more sense making a 17 or 25 spline custom spider gear (so the LSD could use stock axles) than to make a 9 spline AND respline longer axles to an oddball 9 spline as well.
 

jdoclogan

Platinum Level Sponsor
Your right Steve, my bad on the count. It is a 10 spline axle. The reason I'm even into this is because I had the ability to pull and push on the axle getting about an 1/8" play. Any thoughts?
 

jdoclogan

Platinum Level Sponsor
Wow, brain fade has crept into my thinking this afternoon. To be more clear I pushed and pulled when the entire hub, wheel, and brake assembly was together.
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
Your right Steve, my bad on the count. It is a 10 spline axle. The reason I'm even into this is because I had the ability to pull and push on the axle getting about an 1/8" play. Any thoughts?

Not Steve, Jarrid.

Depends on the axle, there were more than 1 type used.

The 10 spline typically was from a Studebaker which used a ball bearing and a press ring to retain the bearing.
I would wager that either the retainer has moved, or the bearing is thrashed.

The brake plate is the other end of what retains the bearing.
Not likley that is loose though.

Love to see some photos of the parts after you pull them.
 

jdoclogan

Platinum Level Sponsor
Jarrid, apology on the name.

To put some of this in perspective. My HLM was driven specifically as a race car in 1962 throughout the Pacific Northwest by Greg Vederoff. Then it was driven 4 years as a daily driver. Total miles approximately 57,000.

I removed both axles and took photos. Note: the retainer ring (at the right side of third photo) is pretty trashed on drivers side unit. Both bearings don't appear to be seriously compromised. I will probably replace them anyway. Also, I see a slight wearing on the drivers side splines about 3/8 of an inch in length from the tip.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Cheers, Jerry
 

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RootesRacer

Donation Time
Jarrid, apology on the name.

To put some of this in perspective. My HLM was driven specifically as a race car in 1962 throughout the Pacific Northwest by Greg Vederoff. Then it was driven 4 years as a daily driver. Total miles approximately 57,000.

I removed both axles and took photos. Note: the retainer ring (at the right side of third photo) is pretty trashed on drivers side unit. Both bearings don't appear to be seriously compromised. I will probably replace them anyway. Also, I see a slight wearing on the drivers side splines about 3/8 of an inch in length from the tip.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Cheers, Jerry

Jerry,

You have what appears to be the studebaker axle, looks like at least that one axle is too short as it is not getting full spline engagement.
Not a huge problem since the ball bearings you are using dont use the axles to push against the other axle for a semi-floating arrangement (uses the axle transfer button in the LSD).

When they ground the splines on the axles its very likley they didnt harden them, so they will show wear through the spider to axle spline interface becuase of the transfer or torque.

I'd be a bit concerned about why the retainers failed, likley a dimensional error in the retainer boss or the ring itself.
The axle could literally have pulled out of the housing while cornering.


Any idea what your gear ratio is?
 

jdoclogan

Platinum Level Sponsor
I appreciate your input Jarrid. If you make it to SUNI VI I will buy you a drink.

I do not know the axle ratio. With the OD it would normally be 4.22 but with the LSD configuration it may be different. Yes, the lightened backing plate was significant, but, who ever did the work was very professional.

I will use a good set of retainer rings off another rear end I have and try it out.

Do you know how many LSD units were used with the Alpines?
 

RootesRacer

Donation Time
I appreciate your input Jarrid. If you make it to SUNI VI I will buy you a drink.

Do you know how many LSD units were used with the Alpines?

If you are talking about Colorado Springs thats 60 miles from here.
Been considering going but can only pop up for perhaps a day.

Only the Dana 23 LSD was used on the alpine to my best knowledge.
 

mototron

Donation Time
Can you post some pics of the LSD unit

JustGot back from the Jeff 500 The Beam ran great with the 4:55 gears
I just cant gain on anyone in the straights ,running 7200 rpm at the end of the straights But it climbs hills like no tomorrow ,Could use a 5th gear now
my times are about the same as with 4:22 (1:38.8) was my best while being chased ,a Lot more fun to drive

What 5 speed can I adapt with a mild over drive , dont want to use the sunbeam overdrive
 

alpine_64

Donation Time
Can you post some pics of the LSD unit

JustGot back from the Jeff 500 The Beam ran great with the 4:55 gears
I just cant gain on anyone in the straights ,running 7200 rpm at the end of the straights But it climbs hills like no tomorrow ,Could use a 5th gear now
my times are about the same as with 4:22 (1:38.8) was my best while being chased ,a Lot more fun to drive

What 5 speed can I adapt with a mild over drive , dont want to use the sunbeam overdrive

rocco,

ou can get a dellows kit to fit the alloy case toyota 5 speed... but cant see historic race group letting you you run that.
 

Alpine 1789

SAOCA President
Diamond Level Sponsor
If you can use the Toyota, one of our members (George Farrell?) made his own bellhousing by mating the front half of his stock housing to the rear half of the Toyota's via a custom made aluminum plate in the middle. It didn't sound terribly difficult to do and I know it would be within your abilities.
 

mototron

Donation Time
Which Toyota trans would work ?
Like a early Celica ?

My Race group is pretty flexible
we have jags with Tremec 5 speeds in them
 

Alpine 1789

SAOCA President
Diamond Level Sponsor
There have been multiple discussions on this in the past and there used to be a tech tip on this site, but I can't find it at the moment. Maybe someone saved a copy? Fortunately, Paul Almjeld's website has something on his conversion: http://www.paulalmjeld.org/. Just scroll down to the bottom of the page.

As for which transmission, here are links to a couple of the earlier conversations:

http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/forum/archive/index.php?t-8837.html
http://www.sunbeamalpine.org/forum/archive/index.php?t-12958.html

Dellows in Australia comes up a lot as a source of a kit, but I doubt you would need them. Still, their catalog has some good information in it: http://www.dellowconversions.com.au/images/DellowAutomotive.pdf

And, finally, didn't someone here put a Ford T5 behind their stock engine? That might also be an option for you to consider.
 

spmdr

Diamond Level Sponsor
So, what is really the advantage of a S 3 trans?


It's hard to tell at a glance what the gear ratio spreads really are.


The desire for better performance is really a closer gear ratio spread in ALL the gears.


Unfortunately, the S 3 trans only changes the 3rd to 4th ratio spread.


S 1, 2, 4 ratios

3.35
.........% drop 36.1
2.14
.........% drop 35.0
1.39
.........% drop 28.0
1.00


S 3 ratios

2.96
........ % drop 36.1
1.89
........ % drop 34.9
1.23
........ % drop 18.6
1.00


s 5 ratios

3.12
....... % drop 36.2
1.99
....... % drop 35.1
1.29
....... % drop 22.4
1.00

Could Rootes keep the 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd gear ratio spreads more consistent?

DW
 
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