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See anything wrong with the clutch?

Discussion in '"Stock" Alpine' started by howehap, Aug 13, 2020.

  1. howehap

    howehap Gold Level Sponsor

    I started a new thread. The clutch still drags when disengaged, so it is difficult to get into first and grinds when going into reverse with engine running. It has .5" of movement at the clutch slave cylinder. Master is 5/8 diam, slave is 1" diam and it is mounted on the backside of bellhousing, bleeder is up, did all the usually bleeding methods. Pluged master and it holds hard foot peddle pressure. I ran out of ideas and tests, and concluded that it must have been something in the clutch disc or other internal parts. So I pulled the tranny and I don't see anything wrong. Here are some photos, does anybody see any issues? I guess I will put it back together if there are no ideas. Disc slides free on splines and is not warped
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Gordon Holsinger

    Gordon Holsinger Diamond Level Sponsor

    Do you have the diagonal braces between the block and bell housing! If not you will destroy the disc!
     
  3. bernd_st

    bernd_st Bronze Level Sponsor

    First of all your clutch cover looks suspicious. Always thought Diaphragm came with the very late SV models and having 3 diagonal straps to secure the pressure ring. Furthermore your pressure ring looks well worn. You may also check the lever arm pivot for play. When reassembling put some copper grease on the release bearing moving pins where they sit in the fork...

    P.S. The diagonal braces are there and visible on one picture. However they are not mandatory for proper clutch operation. I run my SV since years without them and never had any issue.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
  4. RootesRacer

    RootesRacer Donation Time

    I didnt pay attention to the prior thread but do you happen to have a return spring on the slave/TO fork? This has a tendency to reduce the full clutch throw since it pulls the TO bearing from the TO thrust plate and requires some pedal before the clutch event starts to release. IIRC the factory elliminated the return spring at some point in production and there may even have been a service bulletin on this as a repair problem.
     
  5. Filister

    Filister Silver Level Sponsor

    From memory so kinda sketchy but I recall most of the masters being .75". I think the .625 was only a couple of years. That would make a big difference in travel.
     
  6. jumpinjan

    jumpinjan Donation Time

    Check the pilot bearing in the crank and your trans input shaft. Make sure nothing is in a bind in the bellhousing & trans
    Jan
     
  7. howehap

    howehap Gold Level Sponsor

    No return spring used. I talked with Rick McLeod and he said a Series V had 5/8" dia m/c , and Alpine I-III had 3/4". I do get .5" of movement at lever arm. I will check the pilot bearing, the needle bearing looks good, but I will measure id.
     
  8. howehap

    howehap Gold Level Sponsor

    Pilot bearing to transmission shaft has nice close fit (measured with a .625"dia bushing - same as tranny shaft). Fork pivot is not worn. Throw out bearing pins are tight in the fork, takes a little force to move, I don't see any lub on these pins.
    When clutch pedal is depressed to floor, face of slave cylinder piston is almost flush with end of slave cylinder housing.
     
  9. bernd_st

    bernd_st Bronze Level Sponsor

    The pressure ring on your clutch cover is gone...
     
    belmateo likes this.
  10. howehap

    howehap Gold Level Sponsor

    Visual inspection shows that the fulcrum rings on each side of the diaphragm spring are positioned correctly inside the clutch cover.
     
  11. husky drvr

    husky drvr Gold Level Sponsor

    All I see of note is the rough, rusty surface of the pressure plate and that the disk seems to be lacking contact with the flywheel along its inner ID. Also, are you sure the disk hub is not bent? Your pic of the disk seems to be showing darker heat exposure shading to lighter, almost no heat exposure across the diameter. If the other side of the hub shows opposite shading, then definitely check for a bent hub. Uneven heating might be due to some collapsed wave springs. That's difficult to tell in pictures.

    I will agree with bernd_st, the part that the release bearing rides on is shot - or it's the wrong design for a carbon release bearing. The release bearing carbon face should be flat. In the picture, it appears that your release bearing might be worn into a bit of a cone shape - higher in the center than the edges.
     
  12. hartmandm

    hartmandm Moderator Platinum Level Sponsor

    Possibly a dumb question, but before you try to select reverse and it grinds, are you first selecting a forward gear - 2nd, 3rd, etc.?

    Your pressure plate looks like an AP aftermarket item, basically the same as one that I purchased from SAOCA member "Paul A". I have never tried that pressure plate on my series V, but believe Paul had used it on his Alpine. See attached files.

    If you were to set the pressure plate on a flat surface, like a table, I do wonder how much distance there would be from the table top to the ring that mates with the throw-out bearing. I believe I have a NOS pressure plate that I could check the same measurement as a comparison.

    Something looks funky to me in the pilot bearing / hole. What is the black stuff inside and outside the bearing hole? Also, the bearing edges appear chewed up in the photo. Is the pilot bearing oiled? They need to be soaked in oil for at least 24 hours before installation.

    upload_2020-8-13_20-37-27.png

    Here is my setup with a new pilot bearing installed.

    upload_2020-8-13_20-43-58.png

    Another probably dumb question ... did you tighten the pressure plate attachment bolts using progressively equal torques, in a star pattern, like with lug nuts? If not, the pressure plate can be warped. I expect you'd notice the warpage when the pressure plate sits on a flat surface.

    Mike
     

    Attached Files:

  13. howehap

    howehap Gold Level Sponsor

    My pilot bearing is a needle roller, not a brass bushing like yours. The black stuff is grease that was used to lub the needle bearing.

    The photo is misleading, the face of carbon throwout bearing is flat, no cone shape. There is one small edge on the ID where the carbon overhangs the ID of the mating bearing pad on the pressure plate. I will take a closer look at the disc to make sure it is not warped. The disc is a constant thickness of .305" all around so the wave springs should be fine.

    Grinding going into reverse happens all the time. I can engage any gear, or put it into neutral and let the clutch out first before trying reverse, it still grinds going into reverse. I think it would grind in 1st if it didn't have the syncros on it. It takes a fair amount of force to push it into 1st with the engine running. with the engine off, it drops right into any gear without any force.

    If the pressure plate is on a table top, the dimension to the ring that mates with the throw-out bearing is 2.17". If you flip the pressure plate assembly over, the distance from the housing mounting bolt locations down to the "pressure plate disc" is .165" to .178" . This doesn't seem like too much variation considering it is held in this position by the diaphragm spring.

    I didn't do the orginal assembly, but I can check the flatness of the pressure plate housing on my surface plate to verify it is flat.
     
  14. hartmandm

    hartmandm Moderator Platinum Level Sponsor

    Maybe we have different terminology for engage vs release. For me, you "engage" the clutch and select a forward gear, that stops the gearbox input shaft from spinning, then leave the clutch engaged and move to neutral and then to reverse. Did it still grind with that sequence as you enter reverse?

    I checked the spare pressure plate I have and the numbers look like yours - 2.2" and 0.175", though I don't see variation on the 0.175" number.

    Mike
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
  15. howehap

    howehap Gold Level Sponsor

    I believe I tried going into 1st before reverse and still had grinding
     
  16. hartmandm

    hartmandm Moderator Platinum Level Sponsor

    I have found first gears aren't always easy to engage when going from neutral directly to first ... at a young age I developed a habit of idling in neutral with the clutch not engaged, then engage the clutch, go into 2nd gear to sync up the gearbox and the input shaft, then move to 1st gear, then let the clutch out. I've been doing that so long I haven't really thought about it...

    Mike
     
  17. howehap

    howehap Gold Level Sponsor

    Mike, I will give it a try when I get the car back together, thanks
    -Bob
     
  18. MikeH

    MikeH Platinum Level Sponsor

    Used to have to do that with my Pinto. Had to go to 3RD then reverse to go in easier.
     
  19. howehap

    howehap Gold Level Sponsor

    Pressure plate housing mounting face is flat within .003". Clutch disc friction surface is flat within .005". So nothing seems to be warped.
     
  20. Tom H

    Tom H Platinum Level Sponsor

    Me too. It's as natural as breathing.
     

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