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Scarey brakes

T

TerryB

Donation Time
Took my wife for a ride to Seal Beach to Newport beach for some grub, it was a beautiful day why not. On the way home a very nice Turbo Prorche with paper plates on zipped by. We were cruising and I seen the signal was going to change so I went to neutral and coasted a bit until it came time to brake. The pedal went to the floor. :eek: I was going about 30 or so and had that nice Porche ahead. Well I stopped and did not let on to my wife we were brakeless. Exciting. Turns out the rod attached to the brake pedal came out of the master cylinder, the internal snap ring worked its way out and BAM brakeless. Glad the plunger did not come out of the master and spew fluid on my blue carpets. Do you think it is OK to simply reinstall a new snap ring and go on or should I replace the master? Thanks for your opinion.
 
Nickodell

Nickodell

Donation Time
Just my humble opinion but as, next to steering, brakes are the most crucial system on your car - when in doubt replace a suspect part with new! There had to be a reason your current one failed, so just putting it back together is inviting disaster. You generally don't get more than one warning. What does a new MC cost - $50 or so? (VB have a sale on right now). Far cheaper than a new set of legs or what have you.
 
Nickodell

Nickodell

Donation Time
Good for you.

The other main cause of "pedal to the metal" is of course the old one of Girling/Lockheed units drinking the hydraulic fluid. It never ceases to amaze me that Lord Rootes, so far ahead of most of his contemporaries in 1959 (as far as I know the only moderately-priced car with disk brakes at that time, for example) would have stuck to a single braking system until the very end of the 'pine production.

I've had this happen twice (OK, the first was with a Volvo P1800, but the same power booster and also a single system), luckily both times when starting out from home and not when doing 60 mph in traffic. It still scares me to the extent of checking the fluid level before every drive.

I'm working on a "fail safe" system to sound an alarm and flash a big red dashboard light if the brake fluid level ever drops. When it's perfected I'll put it on the forum for anyone to copy.
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Nick, I believe the dual braking system did not appear until the very end of Alpine production, 1966. That aside, I don't think a dual system would have done squat in this situation. The Hudson "Step down" series had a handy feature: if the hydraulic system failed, the parking brake was activated through a cable system. Not much brake, but a whole lot better than none.

Bill
 
Nickodell

Nickodell

Donation Time
Bill Blue said:
Nick, I believe the dual braking system did not appear until the very end of Alpine production, 1966. That aside, I don't think a dual system would have done squat in this situation. Bill
Click to expand...

Alpines had dual braking systems in 1966? How did my '67 SV miss out?:)

OK, OK; I know what you meant. True, dual braking systems were only federally mandated along with a lot of other safety features in 1966. But, but: Alpine/Tiger production did not end until early 1968, so I'm still perplexed that they were not incorporated at least for the '67 year.

And no, a dual system would not have made any difference to the push rod coming out. I didn't imply that it would.
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Good that you knew what I meant. I never said the dual system was on the Alpine, just that it appeared at the end of Alpine production. BTW, I have discovered that AMC had a dual MC for several years prior to 1966. Maybe as early as 1962?

Bill
 
A

alpineiv

So, whilst on the subject, does anyone know of an Alpine being converted to a dual circuit system? I've often thought about it, but I guess you'd need to know what size bore etc. Apart from that would it be that hard to retrofit something from a later model car ?

Brian.
 
oldflotsam

oldflotsam

Donation Time
I just bought a master cylinder for a Datsun F10. Supposedly this will fit my S3 with only minor problems.Then I'll have a dual master, as opposed to no brakes at the present.(I'll also have a non-working booster for sale)

Wayne
 
A

alpineiv

My booster died quite a while ago, and I've never bothered to put it back on. I really don't find the brakes too bad without it, certainly not overly heavy, but a dual circuit master cylinder would make me feel a lot safer.

Brian.
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
I have a Festiva dual master cylinder on my car. Requires an adaptor and modification of the MC mounting base. Go with the F10, but I am pretty sure the Festiva will work satisfactorily. They are the same bore and mechanical specs. I did not know about the F10 at the time.

Bill
 
A

alpineiv

I'll have to check out some cars here in Australia, we have Festivas, but I don't know if they're the same as US ones.

Brian.
 
sunbeammadd

sunbeammadd

Donation Time
Hi Brian,

If memory recalls, the US Festiva was the same as the first Festiva we got that was a Korean-built version of the boxy old Mazda 121.

The second Festiva sold here was called something else in the US. Aspire, I think?

(Why can I remember this stuff, but I can't remember the list of groceries my wife told me to pick up?)
 
Wombat

Wombat

Donation Time
Fitting a dual master cylinder may not be as simple as it seems. Most late model cars have the booster between the pedal and the master cylinder. To use one in the Alpine you would have to devise some way of connecting the pedal push rod to the m/c piston without it falling out as in the post that started this thread or find a car with dual circuit brakes without a booster (or maybe a compact setup with a small booster that will fit in the RHD alpine)

Also you probably would need a master cylinder with the same diameter for the front and rear brakes and without a proportioning valve. I say this because the diameters of the caliper pistons and wheel cylinders were chosen to have something approaching balanced braking (at least by 1959 standards) when they were all getting the same pressure.

Dual circuit would be a Good Thing if it can be done successfully. I have had a clutch slave cylinder seal fail totally and empty the master cylinder - that could just as easily happen to the brakes.

Just some random thoughts.
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Robert, in the states, getting a MC with equal bores front to rear is no problem. Equal bores seem to be the standard these days. I think it is because almost evey car comes with proportioning valves.

Bill
 
RootesRooter

RootesRooter

Donation Time
The Arrow Range in No. America (including the fastback Sunbeam Alpine) had a dual system. It might have been a space problem that kept it out of Series V's. I don't think the Lockheed master used on the Arrows would have fit around the air cleaners on LHD Alpines. Did Girling offer their own dual sytem by that time? It also might have been that Chrysler saw Alpine sales steadily declining after mid-'66 and weren't inclined to invest any more development $$$'s in a bodyshell that wouldn't accommodate their 273.
 
Wombat

Wombat

Donation Time
I may have been on the wrong track thinking dual master cylinders can have different bores front and rear. I thought I saw a cross section of one like this but may have mistaken. Probably was looking at the proportioning valve.

Dual circuit brakes on the Arrow range was apparently North America only. Here in AU the locally assembled Hunter remained single circuit until discontinued in late 1972. I do not know when dual circuits were mandated here. It would appear that they were only installed where the law required.
 
B

Bill Blue

Platinum Level Sponsor
Robert, you were correct in thinking the dual MC's can have different diameter cylinders, front to rear. Its just that in the states at least, it is not common. Seems to have some peaked years ago.

Bill
 
britbeam

britbeam

Donation Time
Bill Blue said:
I have a Festiva dual master cylinder on my car. Requires an adaptor and modification of the MC mounting base. Go with the F10, but I am pretty sure the Festiva will work satisfactorily. They are the same bore and mechanical specs. I did not know about the F10 at the time.

Bill
Click to expand...

Bill can you give the ID of the F10 or Festiva master cylinder? Will these ID bores be similar in size to the series 2 Alpine master cylinders or possibly smaller. Thanks
Dwain V6 Krazy
 
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