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Roller Bearing vs Graphite Throwout Bearing

Jimjordan2

Donation Time
Like John said, won't work on our cars. The Alpine has the very same setup and operates exactly this way. No roller bearings.
 
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Ken Ellis

Donation Time
If one has the roller bearing+carbon washer style, then the carbon washer only absorbs a +/- 1/8" 'scrub' back and forth each revolution, instead of that plus rotation. In other words, the roller would take all the rotation, and the carbon only the up-and-down 'scrub' component of the motion.

With lighted inspection cameras, keeping an eye on things is much easier now.
 

Jay Laifman

Donation Time
I'm not sure what the carbon washer is. I have whatever clutch Rick sold at the time for SV, course spline.

Edit: I was referring her to Ken's comment of roller bearing + carbon washer. I now realize he was saying a new type of TOB that combined roller and carbon would be good. I just have the TOB, like I said, that Rick was selling, and the stock SV clutch Rick sold at the time.
 
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Jimjordan2

Donation Time
Well, all I can say, is if you watch this video, and this guy really does know what he's talking about, the roller bearing is just not the way to go.
MG and Sunbeam used the exact same principal and they are just designed for the carbon bearing. What he's saying really makes sense to me.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Course, I'm the genius that didn't use any loctite on his clutch fork, etc.:rolleyes:
 

Jay Laifman

Donation Time
Watched the video. First, before I make comments about the video, I'm going to repeat, 23 years, lots of miles, Holbay engine putting much more power through the clutch than stock, and it still works beautifully.

Ok, now to the video. Have you ever seen just how much throwout bearing moves forward and back in actual clutch movement? It is not very much.
Similarly, in that short forward and back movement, the side to side movement from the arc of the arm is minuscule. And if the arm is positioned right, so that the arc starts in, cycles out to the middle of the arc and then back in (rather than all on one side of the middle of the arc), it's even less. This guy in the video is WAY over emphasizing it. He makes it look like there is 1" of side to side play totally messing up the alignment. I don't have a measurement. But I'm going to suggest that it might be on the order of 1/16". He suggests that the spinning of the engine becomes completely off center from the TOB. Yeah, sure with his false 1" of side to side movement. But, I'm suggesting that with the actual, minor side to side movement, I don't think there is a material issue.

I think the logic in his thoughts has merit. But I'm not convinced that the facts support that it's a problem.

I will say that roller bearing TOBs do fail. They do have issues. And it could be that there are good batches out there and bad batches - and that perhaps the ones that Sunbeam vendors got had issues. And maybe mine was just a fluke, or Rick's supply at that time happened to be the good ones.
 
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Ken Ellis

Donation Time
I thought it was mentioned in the video -- a hybrid throwout bearing. Moss, maybe? I'm not where I can watch it again at the moment. This evening perhaps...
 

Ken Ellis

Donation Time
When I heard (someone) use the 'carbon washer' term, perhaps I jumped to a conclusion. Could have been a different video, too.

I did find this reference:
http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?1,2332168,2502398#msg-2502398

Second paragraph notes the apparent existence of the Moss hybrid part (for MG), at least a few years ago. Some of the pics I can't see, as I'm not a member of the site...

In any event, the go-to solution for roller longevity seems to be a lightweight positive release spring, that pulls the bearing slightly away from the pressure plate. Usually installed between the outside end of the lever and some convenient place on nearby structure. Nothing strong enough to notice upon application, but just enough (adjustable) to prevent even light contact, which would have the effect of spinning the roller bearing all the time regardless of whether pedal is pressed. This light scuffing would have little effect on a carbon bearing, but the roller would happily spin away, and eventually heat and discard it's lubrication, and then fail. Badness.
 

65beam

Donation Time
bearing

The series 5 goes to Tiger Auto next Friday for a couple things that need done after 22 years. One of the things we are going to do is to pull the trans and change the clutch and the graphite throw out bearing. It's been in the car since it left that shop in April of 1995. This car was driven many miles on the east coast before the wife's problems forced us to do something different roughly 10 years ago. Twenty two years for the original style throw out isn't bad.
 

67Survivor

Donation Time
The reason I started this thread should be obvious; I have clutch issues.

The clutch that was in the car when I purchased it had failed and I elected to replace all of the hydraulics as well as the pilot bushing, clutch disk and throwout bearing. Unfortunately, the pressure plate was not in good shape(the disk in the center that the bearing sits against moves around freely). The original part is no longer available, so a replacement kit (pressure plate, roller bearing and fork) were ordered from Rick at SS. Flywheel was resurfaced, and an entirely new clutch system had been installed by a local British car mechanic. After this install, the clutch had a definite chirp to it that would stop if I slightly depressed the clutch pedal. It was also present when the clutch was fully engaged(say, at a stoplight). Unfortunately, about 150 miles later, the clutch would neither fully engage nor fully disengage. I had an overdrive trans to install anyways, so I pulled the old trans out and found the reason the clutch didn't work correctly; bent fingers on the pressure plate. upon closer examination, I realized that the (diaphragm?) that the fingers are all attached to was actually split and broken. The surface of the steel roller bearing was originally flat and is now very concave from wear. I spoke with Rick and sent him this same video. He assured me that he has sold many of these setups and has never had an issue with any of them. He surmised that because of the wear, that the clutch was not adjusted properly and was putting substantial pressure on the roller bearing against the fingers of the pressure plate. He sent me a new plate and bearing, which have been installed. This new setup still has a chirp, only not as pronounced. Rick was of the opinion that because this is a self adjusting clutch, as long as the slave was not bottomed out and therefore not applying unwanted pressure, that this setup should adjust itself properly. I pushed on the rod in the slave and was able to move it inward, therefore not bottomed out. unfortunately, while test driving it, the distributor had a tantrum and imploded. A new complete Pertronix setup goes into it this week and testing will resume.

A few things I noted:
-The original clutch plate was worn quite oddly, as If it had been sitting against an uneven surface. I had the flywheel resurfaced and checked for balance.
-The fork that moves the bearing is not exactly firm in the mount on the bellhousing. I can wiggle it up and down a bit. The mount and bellhousing are the only original parts other that the flywheel.
-I have long legs and I tend to push my clutch pedal right to the floor. Is there an amount that the pedal should be able to move? My pedal seems to stop moving when the saddle connecting the master cylinder rod to the pedal arm bottoms out against the master cylinder. I have many theories about how this could be affecting the clutch action as well as exacerbating the chirping noise.

Any opinions are welcome, and facts are cherished.
Thank you all.
 

hartmandm

Moderator
Diamond Level Sponsor
67Survivor - are we talking about a series V?

I'm not aware of Rick selling a roller bearing. I only found a seller on EBay (down under) selling a roller bearing. I skipped the roller bearing once I examined the motion of the pivot fork + bearing through its range. It is never really centered.

Also not aware of Rick selling pressure plates for series V at this point. He has the pilot bushings and graphite bearing. Not much else for series V clutches. No pressure plates or discs.

If your pressure plate 'triangle' that sits on the fingers and interfaces with the throw out bearing is damaged, you need to address that.

You mentioned roller bearing multiple times. Are you sure you are using a roller bearing and not a graphite throw out bearing?

The pivot fork does have some up-down play on my car. The mount itself is solid, but the fork can slide vertically up and down a bit on its pins.

Mike
 

67Survivor

Donation Time
Hi Mike
Thank you for the response. Great to know that there is some play in the fork.

Rick has all kinds of things that are not listed in his current catalog. I think he is too busy answering my questions to get around to updating it. He was able to sell me a complete clutch system for the seriesV.
The original pressure plate triangle was very lose, which is why I ordered the new pressure plate and roller bearing from Rick. This came as a complete setup of pressure plate, steel roller bearing and new fork. It works with the original clutch disk that he sells.
I took a ridiculous amount of pictures, but I will post a link shortly once I get them uploaded to my website.
Thanks again for the interest and information
Rob
 

67Survivor

Donation Time
This link will take you to photos of the replacement system that I purchased from SS after the pressure plate failed. The last few photos are of the replacement bearing next to the one with 150 miles on it.

http://www.artisanimages.ca/Cars/Sunbeam-Alpine/Clutch/

I do want to be clear, Rick has been great in helping me think this issue through, both with his knowledge and great customer support. He has sold many of these units and to date, mine is the only issue. I have an endoscope, and I intend to keep an eye on the wear over the next few months. That being said, if I had a good original pressure plate to install, I would pull that transmission out and go back to original plate and graphite bearing in a heartbeat.
 

Mike O'D

Gold Level Sponsor
That looks like a graphite throw-out. Or is it the combo that Ken mentioned?

I think you are missing a piece. Where is the flat metal piece that the throw-out engages on?

Mike
 

hartmandm

Moderator
Diamond Level Sponsor
Does the throw out bearing mate directly to the pressure plate fingers?

I have no experience with that type of setup. It seems that could be tricky given the Alpine throw out bearing isn't very centered around the transmission input shaft (which was covered earlier in this thread).

Mike
 

hartmandm

Moderator
Diamond Level Sponsor
FYI - Found a photo showing a slight gap with the clutch pivot fork mount. The gap is visible on the left side in the photo. My car has 27k miles.

Mike
 

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